In my wagon i have seatbelts for the front but nothing in the back.
What im trying to find out is what others have done for rear seatbelts. I have a 4 year old daughter who due to her age still sits in a booster seat.
I have been told various things in regards to what to do. Looking in the back of the wagon there doesnt seem to be a whole lot of room to mount the sash belts, so maybe i could have just lap belts but i do not know what the law says about seatbelts. Im in nsw but the local rms were not a great help.
I need to have the daughters booster seat sorted before anything else.
Seatbelts
Re: Seatbelts
G'day Pauly,
For my EK wagon I have retractable lap/sash belts in the outer positions, and lap belts in the centre. I have this in both the front, and the rear. For the rear, I mounted the reels on the wheelarch, and put the sash guide on the "C" pillar.
My understanding in NSW is:
a) if you are undertaking modifications that require an engineers certificate, then seat belts must be installed for all seating positions. Lap/sash seat belts are required for all front and rear outboard seating positions. Lap/sash or lap belts shall be fitted to inboard seating positions. The level of safety provided by seat belts must not be reduced. Seat belts must not be replaced by belts of a lesser standard or with second-hand belts. For example, lap only belts must not be used in place of retracting lap/sash seat belts. The use of a retractable seat belt disabling device is not acceptable.This is based on the NSW RTA Vehicle Standards Information Sheets No 6. for light vehicle modifications.
b) if you do not require an engineers certificate, then you do not need to fit seatbelts. However, if you are carrying kiddies, the following apply:
Children younger than six months must be secured in a rearward facing restraint.
Children aged six months to under four years must be secured in either a rear or forward facing restraint.
Children aged four years to under seven years must be secured in forward facing child restraint or booster seat.
Children younger than four years cannot travel in the front seat of a vehicle with two or more rows.
Children aged four years to under seven years cannot travel in the front seat of a vehicle with two or more rows, unless all other back seats are occupied by children younger than seven years in a child restraint or booster seat.
I understand that the above child restraint laws are retrospective (i.e. that they are not "grandfathered" just because the FB/EK came out with no belts orginally). You would need to fit belts to meet the above.
d) if you are installing belts not for engineering certificates or for child restraint (but more for peace of mind) then you can choose which positions get belts and which don't.
c) Any installed seatbelts (even the peace of mind ones) must be approved by an RTA Authorised Restraint Fitting Station (http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/index ... tting.form). This is not an engineers certificate, just an inspection and basic form to sign off and fairly cheap (>$100). Most fitting Stations will not let you do the work yourself (to a decent standard) and then inspect and certify it - most will only certify if they do the work themselves (in the end it's their signature on the line). It pays to check with the one you have in mind before you fire up the drill and spanners to DIY.
d) Some Fitting Stations require full compliance to ADR5 (http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2009C ... 5628295870) when you install - there are some tricky bits in ADR/5 about how far apart the belts can be. Again, check with the Fitting Station you have in mind before flashing up the tools. I have recently done an ADR/5 compliant system for my EK wagon. I took a full set of photos and measurements, and have turned it into a draft Guide. If you want a draft copy, let me know an email address.
e) Most seatbelt installers require a minimum size of reinforcing plate to be used where you are bolting through a body structure. I can't remember where the legislation is for the minimum size for light vehicles, but seem to remember it is a mm2 requirement, not a "Xmm x Ymm" requirement. The bus/coach retrofit guidance (http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registration/ ... /vib49.pdf) indicates 3750mm2 (75mm x50mm).
I could be wrong with the above understanding of NSW legislation - happy to hear alternative views.
You have a number of options to fit the belts:
a) Frankenstein the bolts through the B-pillar. This can be ugly (bolt heads on the outside), though is common. If you are going to do this, take a look at the UNF bolt head, and imagine just how much surface area under that bolt head actually holds the load in place during an acident... it's bugger all, which is how one seatbelt installer convinced me it's not too great an idea. When you fit the bolts, you must either fir anti-crush tubes or used bolts that prevent crush of the pillar by design.
b) You can cut a slot in the inner B-pillar skin and lower the flat plates down. The slot is normally welded back up.
c) The method I used was a little different. I ended up using a hole saw to cut a hole (26mm from memory) into the B-pillar (inside the car) at about shoulder height. I used a reinforcing plate of around 6"x1" (correct mm2 size) with a captive nut welded on the back. The plate was a cad-plated off-the-shelf job from the Inspection Station. I drilled two 1/8" holes in the reinforcing plate, one at either end, and made similar holes in the B-pillar (one above the 23mm hole, one below). I put a piece of fishing line on the plate and dropped it into the hole (catch it with the fishing line). Use the fishing line to pull it up, then put the seatbelt bolt into the plate (can't fall down now). Hold it in place with the bolt, and put a pop-rivet through the B-pillar hole into the plate. Repeat the pop-rivet for the other hole. You end up with a hole in the pillar with the plate behind it - can cover the hole with a plastic cap, though the seatbelt top "pulley" bit covers most of the hole once it is bolted in place. Seems a bit funny leaving a hole there, but the surface area of the plate is a shitload bigger than the surface area of the bolt-head used in "Frankenstein" set-ups (much less likely to pull through in an impact). This is the same process reccomended by one US seatbelt manufacturer to refit old cars.
Most signatories will not accept 2nd hand belts from the wreckers. I'd reccomend HEMCO (http://hemco.com.au/seatbelts.html) - call them with the vehicle type, where you want the belts, what type and what colour and they will mail the right ones to you. I've used them in both my FB and EK, and am happy with them.
Sorry for the epic novel above - took me a lot of fact-finding before I put belts into mine as my engineer is really fussy about belts.
Cheers,
Harv
For my EK wagon I have retractable lap/sash belts in the outer positions, and lap belts in the centre. I have this in both the front, and the rear. For the rear, I mounted the reels on the wheelarch, and put the sash guide on the "C" pillar.
My understanding in NSW is:
a) if you are undertaking modifications that require an engineers certificate, then seat belts must be installed for all seating positions. Lap/sash seat belts are required for all front and rear outboard seating positions. Lap/sash or lap belts shall be fitted to inboard seating positions. The level of safety provided by seat belts must not be reduced. Seat belts must not be replaced by belts of a lesser standard or with second-hand belts. For example, lap only belts must not be used in place of retracting lap/sash seat belts. The use of a retractable seat belt disabling device is not acceptable.This is based on the NSW RTA Vehicle Standards Information Sheets No 6. for light vehicle modifications.
b) if you do not require an engineers certificate, then you do not need to fit seatbelts. However, if you are carrying kiddies, the following apply:
Children younger than six months must be secured in a rearward facing restraint.
Children aged six months to under four years must be secured in either a rear or forward facing restraint.
Children aged four years to under seven years must be secured in forward facing child restraint or booster seat.
Children younger than four years cannot travel in the front seat of a vehicle with two or more rows.
Children aged four years to under seven years cannot travel in the front seat of a vehicle with two or more rows, unless all other back seats are occupied by children younger than seven years in a child restraint or booster seat.
I understand that the above child restraint laws are retrospective (i.e. that they are not "grandfathered" just because the FB/EK came out with no belts orginally). You would need to fit belts to meet the above.
d) if you are installing belts not for engineering certificates or for child restraint (but more for peace of mind) then you can choose which positions get belts and which don't.
c) Any installed seatbelts (even the peace of mind ones) must be approved by an RTA Authorised Restraint Fitting Station (http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/index ... tting.form). This is not an engineers certificate, just an inspection and basic form to sign off and fairly cheap (>$100). Most fitting Stations will not let you do the work yourself (to a decent standard) and then inspect and certify it - most will only certify if they do the work themselves (in the end it's their signature on the line). It pays to check with the one you have in mind before you fire up the drill and spanners to DIY.
d) Some Fitting Stations require full compliance to ADR5 (http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2009C ... 5628295870) when you install - there are some tricky bits in ADR/5 about how far apart the belts can be. Again, check with the Fitting Station you have in mind before flashing up the tools. I have recently done an ADR/5 compliant system for my EK wagon. I took a full set of photos and measurements, and have turned it into a draft Guide. If you want a draft copy, let me know an email address.
e) Most seatbelt installers require a minimum size of reinforcing plate to be used where you are bolting through a body structure. I can't remember where the legislation is for the minimum size for light vehicles, but seem to remember it is a mm2 requirement, not a "Xmm x Ymm" requirement. The bus/coach retrofit guidance (http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registration/ ... /vib49.pdf) indicates 3750mm2 (75mm x50mm).
I could be wrong with the above understanding of NSW legislation - happy to hear alternative views.
You have a number of options to fit the belts:
a) Frankenstein the bolts through the B-pillar. This can be ugly (bolt heads on the outside), though is common. If you are going to do this, take a look at the UNF bolt head, and imagine just how much surface area under that bolt head actually holds the load in place during an acident... it's bugger all, which is how one seatbelt installer convinced me it's not too great an idea. When you fit the bolts, you must either fir anti-crush tubes or used bolts that prevent crush of the pillar by design.
b) You can cut a slot in the inner B-pillar skin and lower the flat plates down. The slot is normally welded back up.
c) The method I used was a little different. I ended up using a hole saw to cut a hole (26mm from memory) into the B-pillar (inside the car) at about shoulder height. I used a reinforcing plate of around 6"x1" (correct mm2 size) with a captive nut welded on the back. The plate was a cad-plated off-the-shelf job from the Inspection Station. I drilled two 1/8" holes in the reinforcing plate, one at either end, and made similar holes in the B-pillar (one above the 23mm hole, one below). I put a piece of fishing line on the plate and dropped it into the hole (catch it with the fishing line). Use the fishing line to pull it up, then put the seatbelt bolt into the plate (can't fall down now). Hold it in place with the bolt, and put a pop-rivet through the B-pillar hole into the plate. Repeat the pop-rivet for the other hole. You end up with a hole in the pillar with the plate behind it - can cover the hole with a plastic cap, though the seatbelt top "pulley" bit covers most of the hole once it is bolted in place. Seems a bit funny leaving a hole there, but the surface area of the plate is a shitload bigger than the surface area of the bolt-head used in "Frankenstein" set-ups (much less likely to pull through in an impact). This is the same process reccomended by one US seatbelt manufacturer to refit old cars.
Most signatories will not accept 2nd hand belts from the wreckers. I'd reccomend HEMCO (http://hemco.com.au/seatbelts.html) - call them with the vehicle type, where you want the belts, what type and what colour and they will mail the right ones to you. I've used them in both my FB and EK, and am happy with them.
Sorry for the epic novel above - took me a lot of fact-finding before I put belts into mine as my engineer is really fussy about belts.
Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
Re: Seatbelts
Thanks for that Harv, much appreciated.
The front seatbelts have the bolt through the pillar. You have given a better idea of what is required.
The front seatbelts have the bolt through the pillar. You have given a better idea of what is required.
Re: Seatbelts
first i haven't read what Harv wrote (no concentration today 
) in the convertable i built years ago (which started as a wagon) i had to have retractable lap sash belts we just mounted them to the rear wheel arches so they then came up and over the seat
) in the convertable i built years ago (which started as a wagon) i had to have retractable lap sash belts we just mounted them to the rear wheel arches so they then came up and over the seatsometimes yor just better off shitting in yor hands and clapping
W.S.C.C.A
Woodstock chapter
W.S.C.C.A
Woodstock chapter
-
the platinum man
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:53 pm
- State: NSW
- Location: armidale NSW
Re: Seatbelts
HI PAULY
SERVICE NSW (RTA/RMS) or whatever there calling them selves this week
pree
1963 vehicles in UN MODIFIED condition (i would call 7' wheels a modification) do not require the fitment of safety restraints (BUT NO one UNDER 12 YEARS of age CAN BE UNRESTRAINED IN A MOTOR VEHICLE)
SO you have to provide a restraint for your little ones unless thay can pass for 12 years of age
NOW
anny seatbelt fitted to a vehicle that came out of the factory without them MUST BE ENGINEER CERTIFIED if no factory mounts are avaliable
IF
your vehicle has modifications seek advice from a VSCC s engineer and follow his advice as to the fitment of seat belts to all occupant seating positions and pay paticular atention to the requirements for child restraints
When i grew up 8 of us traveled to to the coast in dads sherwood EK wagon all loose in the back yelling and screaming the whole way its one of my fondest memories
hope this helps
the platinum man
i do unregisterd blue slips in NSW
0267725290
SERVICE NSW (RTA/RMS) or whatever there calling them selves this week
pree
1963 vehicles in UN MODIFIED condition (i would call 7' wheels a modification) do not require the fitment of safety restraints (BUT NO one UNDER 12 YEARS of age CAN BE UNRESTRAINED IN A MOTOR VEHICLE)
SO you have to provide a restraint for your little ones unless thay can pass for 12 years of age
NOW
anny seatbelt fitted to a vehicle that came out of the factory without them MUST BE ENGINEER CERTIFIED if no factory mounts are avaliable
IF
your vehicle has modifications seek advice from a VSCC s engineer and follow his advice as to the fitment of seat belts to all occupant seating positions and pay paticular atention to the requirements for child restraints
When i grew up 8 of us traveled to to the coast in dads sherwood EK wagon all loose in the back yelling and screaming the whole way its one of my fondest memories
hope this helps
the platinum man
i do unregisterd blue slips in NSW
0267725290
The Platinum Man
Re: Seatbelts
Mick, I have no concentration most days 
.
I ran mine as Mick describes. In the dodgy photo below, the coffee cup represents the belt reel, whilst the duct tape represents the seatbelt strap:
Just be grateful I didn't use any cable ties in the mock-up
. The duct tape goes a little too far to the left of that photo - I had to lie the roll down somewhere to take the photo. My wagon is in for paint and panel at the moment - when I reinstall the seatbelts, I'll take better photos and publish the seatbelt Guide.
The photo below is of Ed Ho's FE wagon, where I stole the idea from:
Apparantly the same setup is used on XD &*#@ wagons.
Platinum Man,
Do you have the reference for the advice from the RMS? I understand that "any seatbelt fitted to a vehicle that came out of the factory without them MUST BE ENGINEER CERTIFIED if no factory mounts are available" is not correct, and that RMS Authorised Restraint Fitting Stations can approve non-factory belts and mounts on vehicles. This reference indicates that certification is required: http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/roa ... ations.pdf, but does not indicate that it must be an engineers certificate. This RMS site http://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/ ... tting.form indicates that the Authorised Restraint Fitting Stations may fit child car seats that require vehicle modifications, install more anchorage points, and retrofit lap and lap-sash seatbelts i.e. I do not believe an engineer is required, only the RMS Authorised Restraint Fitting Station.
This is certainly the case with my FB, were an Authorised Restraint Fitting Station issued a certificate for seatbelts with no engineering.
Regards,
Harv
Cheers,
Harv
.I ran mine as Mick describes. In the dodgy photo below, the coffee cup represents the belt reel, whilst the duct tape represents the seatbelt strap:
Just be grateful I didn't use any cable ties in the mock-up
. The duct tape goes a little too far to the left of that photo - I had to lie the roll down somewhere to take the photo. My wagon is in for paint and panel at the moment - when I reinstall the seatbelts, I'll take better photos and publish the seatbelt Guide.The photo below is of Ed Ho's FE wagon, where I stole the idea from:
Apparantly the same setup is used on XD &*#@ wagons.
Platinum Man,
Do you have the reference for the advice from the RMS? I understand that "any seatbelt fitted to a vehicle that came out of the factory without them MUST BE ENGINEER CERTIFIED if no factory mounts are available" is not correct, and that RMS Authorised Restraint Fitting Stations can approve non-factory belts and mounts on vehicles. This reference indicates that certification is required: http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/roa ... ations.pdf, but does not indicate that it must be an engineers certificate. This RMS site http://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/ ... tting.form indicates that the Authorised Restraint Fitting Stations may fit child car seats that require vehicle modifications, install more anchorage points, and retrofit lap and lap-sash seatbelts i.e. I do not believe an engineer is required, only the RMS Authorised Restraint Fitting Station.
This is certainly the case with my FB, were an Authorised Restraint Fitting Station issued a certificate for seatbelts with no engineering.
Regards,
Harv
Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
Re: Seatbelts
Im going down the road to have a chat with a bloke in town who installs seatbelts etc and see what he has to say.
Re: Seatbelts
yeah the coffee cup mounting point is about correct i can't remember what we did as the secondary point (pillar on yor car) all i can remember is it went up and over the seat we may have used something out of a wagon
i'm also not sure on the has to be engineered thing and am pretty sure if they are fitted at a recognised station like where you said you are going to talk to the guy you don't need it engineered, there's also the fit them as described and then say dunno as far as i know they've been in it for years
i'm also not sure on the has to be engineered thing and am pretty sure if they are fitted at a recognised station like where you said you are going to talk to the guy you don't need it engineered, there's also the fit them as described and then say dunno as far as i know they've been in it for years
sometimes yor just better off shitting in yor hands and clapping
W.S.C.C.A
Woodstock chapter
W.S.C.C.A
Woodstock chapter
Re: Seatbelts
Thats always been the theory I have run with , but am yet to be asked about ......Mick wrote: there's also the fit them as described and then say dunno as far as i know they've been in it for years
I started with nothing and still have most of it left.
Foundation member #61 of FB/EK Holden club of W.A.
Foundation member #61 of FB/EK Holden club of W.A.
Re: Seatbelts
Quick question....
What type of seat belts do people install?
What do people think of these retro style belts.... http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Original-Sty ... SwnGJWSuIN
Would they pass NSW rego????
What type of seat belts do people install?
What do people think of these retro style belts.... http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Original-Sty ... SwnGJWSuIN
Would they pass NSW rego????
Re: Seatbelts
HQ-Z era. If you like 14s and HQ hubcaps on your FB/EK these would suit the theme. Would look good in a HQ-Z.
getting my FB ute on the road
EK van on rotisserie
EK van on rotisserie
Re: Seatbelts
Was more thinking along the lines of retractable v fixed seatbelts - what do people fit?
Re: Seatbelts
Depends how fussy your certifier is going to be. NCOP requires the belts to comply with AS/NZS 2596, even for pre-ADR vehicles like ours. Some demand retractables, though most are happy with non-retractables.D-MAN wrote:Was more thinking along the lines of retractable v fixed seatbelts - what do people fit?
I fitted non-retractable belts to all six seating positions in the FB. They are a pain-in-the-bum with young kids... mine leave the belts hanging out the doors. For the EK, I fitted retractables to the four outer positions, and lap belts to the two inner positions. The additional work to put retractables in is minimal.
Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.
Re: Seatbelts
If you have fixed belts you can buy retractable thingys that fit onto them and wind the belt up - have a look on US Epay.
I started with nothing and still have most of it left.
Foundation member #61 of FB/EK Holden club of W.A.
Foundation member #61 of FB/EK Holden club of W.A.
Re: Seatbelts
Aaaha... Seatbelt Thingies.Blacky wrote:If you have fixed belts you can buy retractable thingys that fit onto them and wind the belt up - have a look on US Epay.
http://www.fbekholden.com/forum/viewtop ... co#p165781
Thought about buying some... the dragging belts drive me nuts.
Cheers,
Harv
327 Chev EK wagon, original EK ute for Number 1 Daughter, an FB sedan meth monster project and a BB/MD grey motored FED.