Valve timing check

[bakelitecow]

Hi all ,... I'm relatively new to the forum and a new owner of an EK ,...
I have a question relating to checking the valve timing on the grey motor ,..I'm currently replacing the timing cover oil seal and are contemplating changing the Timing gear as well ,..
The How to Guide is great and explains everything about how to do it ,... so before I take the cam and everthing out, with the timing cover off i thought it would be a good idea to align the timing marks on the cam & crank gears
and check /align the flywheel timing /TDC marks,..
On my engine ,... in this position the distributor rotor is firing # 6 ??,...I thought it would be firing #1 ,... checking #1 it is found to be " on the rock " ??,...

When I rotate the engine by hand ( Clockwise ) and get # 1on its compression stoke with the flywheel timing / TDC aligned,.. the distibutor rotor is correctly positioned pointing to the body mark firing #1 ,... #6 is on the rock as it should
be ,.... but the cam & crank marks are exactly 180 degree opposite each other ( counted the teeth to confirm ) this seems wrong to me ?.....i thought they should be aligned in this position
Could the Cam or the distributor have been assembled incorrectly previously ??,.. or am I not understanding something
I haven't gone any further as i want to understand this better ,... by the way the engine was running ok before it was taken apart
Can someone help ?,....

Also a replacement timing gear is with spares that i got with the car ,... the Holden Part no on it is 7414429 ,.. the existing one has part no 7414360 ?,..... but they look the same ,.. is this one for a different engine ??,..

Kel

[Blacky]

Welcome to the forum Kel , that's a pretty unique username you have there ?????

I have no idea how to answer your question , but I am sure someone will soon enough , just thought I would say hello

[bakelitecow]

Thanks Blacky ,.... lol , the username is my wifey 's she likes bakelite things ,... especially the smell when you rub it
She also has a group of friends that get together for coffee and they all call themselves "the coffee cows " ,...
so i'll leave it at that ,...
Looks like your trip was great ,...some good photos too, would like to hear about it next time ,

I may be out in left field ,... but 'm sure with the wealth of knowledge here someone can put me in the picture

[rosco]

Edited after following post below by Harv.

Hi Kel,
welcome aboard - and congratulations on joining the fold.

Ok - I'm not that great with some stuff, and there are others here who understand and can comment far better than I on mechanicals.

Yes, most certainly - those two marks must be aligned when fitting the timing gear - and as you slide/push/hammer it in - make sure you allow for the hypoid action to mesh the teeth - it's quite a few degrees of rotation as the timing gear turns whilst being pushed on.

You can't go wrong if the two marks are aligned - the key-ways on crank and cam won't allow it to be fitted any other way. There are only marks on the outside of the gears.

What I suspect - and I might have read your question wrongly - is that the distributor has been fitted 180 degrees out.
The cam gear has twice as many teeth as the crank one.
The camshaft will turn at half the speed of the crank - hence why the distributor only turns once per two crank rpms - and valves open/close every second crank turn.

The confusion usually arises because the ball on the flywheel comes up every revolution - it shows exactly the same for #1 as it does for #6 - if you doubt this, folk - connect your timing light to #6 plug lead and try it....

Edit: - in the post below this one from Harv - he tells us that when the crank/cam timing marks align - valve timing is actually set for #6 on compression. Why GMH did this, is beyond me....

If the distributor has been fitted 180 deg out - it will fire the "other" equal cylinder as the piston comes to the top - the one with the exhaust valve closing and inlet opening.

If you're trying to set up ignition timing on #1, use the following.

Timing mark on flywheel on ball, distributor cap off, rotor should be pointing at approximately 7 - 8 O'clock (there might be a small line mark on the top of the body of the distributor - there is on a Red) and # 1 cylinder exhaust and inlet valves have clearance, # 11 & #12 are opening/closing.

If the rotor is pointing at #6 cylinder (1 - 2 O'clock), you need to pull out and rotate the dizzy 180 deg - AND you need to ensure that the distributor drops fully down onto the crankcase mounting face.... thus ensuring the tongue on the end of the shaft fully engages with the oil pump drive slot.

If you have moved the crank around a bit and can't get the distributor shaft tongue to "find" the oil pump slot - just insert a long flat bladed screwdriver and turn the oil pump drive until it lines up.... and, the drive gear on the distributor is also hypoid... the shaft will turn as you push the distributor in..... don't force the dizzy down - when aligned - it should simply slip in - the only resistance should be the "O" ring on the body of the distributor (if there is one... it's a long time since I worked on greys).....

I would highly recommend you consider fitting a steel timing gear to your engine - the fibre one is the achillies heel of the grey motor.
On most runs - it's the big one which results in a trailer home.
On national runs - it is the most likely winner of the "hard luck award".

The steel gear will be ever so slightly more noisy than the fibre (which is probably why GMH used them) - but they don't break.
Just one word of caution - if you go this way, get the steel one - not the alloy one with steel insert.

I hope this gives you some relief... or, if I've missed your issue - kindly advise...

frats,
Rosco

[Harv]

G'day Kel,

What you are seeing is normal.

The marks on the camshaft and camshaft gears are punched such that they align when #6 is firing, not #1. When #1 fires, the marks will indeed be 180 degrees out. The table in the attachment might help. I've highlighted in yellow the only time that the marks align.

The 7414429 timing gear is correct - the part number was later changed to 7414360, but is the same piece of kit.

Rosco's right - if you are going to go through all the drama of replacing the timing gear, use a steel one, not fibre. Whilst the fibre one will give many hundreds of thousands of miles service, they are simply not as reliable as steel. Do it once, never worry about it again (though you are not a real FB/EK owner until you have shat a timing gear at the most inopportune time... don't ask me how I know ).

Cheers,
Harv

[rosco]

Thanks Harv - noted - I'll edit my above post in case someone cuts and pastes it...

I did not realise that those marks aligned with #6 on compression.... another entry in my book...
As mentioned, it's been a very long time since I worked on a grey.... and, if my ignorance on congruent - is this the same case with a Red?

There were for some time (and I hope they've all gone) alloy timing gears available with steel inserts... or were these for Red motors?
The issue arose when the alloy boss in the centre of the gear developed slop - and timing went out the window...
The more these were used - the greater the slop.... hence why I seriously suggest to stay well away from any alloy/steel gear.

frats,
Rosco

[Harv]

Not sure about the red timing marks Rosco... my knowledge of late model gear is not too good. Came across my first Hall Effect dizzy last week and spent a good hour head-scratching (then dropped in a points set dizzy so I could understand it ).

Alloy gears are still around - JP make them as part JP5986 for greys and JP5954 for reds.

Cheers,
Harv

[rosco]

Thanks Harv,
think I've made my thoughts known on alloy gears...

Ok - I went the exact opposite direction than most when I upgraded my ignition system.... I went with infra-red.

The company fitted it for me back in 1983 and set it up - it hasn't moved one micro-millimetre since - the only issue I ever suffered was on the way to Tenterfield - and at Tenterfield - along with an embarassing wedding failure.... they all turned out to be a faulty micro-connector in the harness.... and I had unwitting caused this when I re-jigged the connections via my security system.

I'm so convinced this system is the duck's - I've fitted one to our little 1977 Corona - got sick of filing down and replacing points in that...
That's now in it's tenth month - and the timing light is exactly the same as set... little engine runs like a sewing machine now - the smoothest idle I've ever known it to have in the 24 years I've had it.....

If anyone wants more on this system - pm me..... it's English - the mob are great to deal with - and ship almost the same day.

It will make the coil spark jump almost 1" - you can open up your plug gaps to around 0.050" - system is guaranteed accurate for over 10k rpm.

Providing you can keep water from the HT leads and that module harness connector - you can bury your distributor in water..... and everything will still work just fine...

From memory, the system cost $330.04 AU shipped .... complete with high output coil they recommend - you can't use a resistance coil with this system - it'll burn it out (the coil, that is) let me know - the company who markets the system is Robsport International -

http://www.robsport.co.uk

enquiries@robsport.co.uk

I've just done a re-visit to the store - they no longer show that they stock the entire system - but they will get one in at trade and pass on the discount... that's what I did when I bought my last one....

Otherwise (and I'm not going to chase this up) - there is an Australian distributor... don't know anything about them - but they show themselves listing the system...

Lumenition Australia Pty Ltd
Auto Electrical Services - Padstow, NSW

45 Fairford Rd, Padstow NSW 2211

tel:0297095611

Don't know what they stock or what they charge....

there's another up-market crowd over in England who graft their "cut" from a much higher outlay.... I still have all the details of the order, contact etc. etc....

sorry to swamp this thread... but I read that you are having issues with Hall effect systems... this one is just so simple - set and forget.

frats,
Rosco

[Harv]

Naah, I fixed the problem with the Hall Effect dizzy. Pulled it out, wrapped the leads around it and put it into the filing cabinet with all the other red motor odds and ends . Apparently it needs a separate alloy ignition module, which I don't have, so for now it can live in the spare parts department.

Gotta love an early Corona - grew up with those too. Still remember the old boy bringing home a Crown that had a mini fridge in the back... so, so cool in the late 70's.

Cheers,
Harv

[Thommo]

Get the steel timing gear, "steer clear of the alloy gear"

[bakelitecow]

Thanks Guys ,...for all your feedback , it has cleared all my confusion
Your table Harv,... on the whole engine operating cycle explains everything ( don't you just love mechanical things !,.. especially when you know how they work )
So,... i can get stuck into it now with great confidence on the change ,... I'm so glad i asked about this and to be a part of a great family here on this forum.
I will definitely take all your advise and change to a steel timing gear ,... researching other posts give some reference to a few places to get them ,...
i have noticed currently on Ebay one manufactured by " SPECO ",... are they any good ?,....
Boy ,... I gota say " i take my hat off " to anyone who has done this heart surgery on the the side of the road !!,... but i guess back in the day you had too,...
not like you could just get on the mobile and ring Dad ,.. or the RAC like today ,..
Cheers,
Kel

[rosco]

I don't know of the SPECO ones, Kel... but I suspect they probably all come from the same factory - just make sure it's 100% steel and not alloy.

Yes, been there - done that - on the way to Tocumwal with a caravan in tow... half way between Strathmerton and Toc.... oil light on - engine running down without compression.... span over like a banshee with the starter motor... that was one Easter I won't forget.
Towed out to our destination on the Murray river town beach then back for the van....
Old chap in the garage on Thursday night before Good Friday was very reluctant to "lend" his timing gear puller..
Took all Good Friday to do the replacement...

Just a timely (pun intended) warning to those with fibre gears.... if you are going to rev the heads off these great old dinosaurs.... any valve "bounce" at the extreme top rpms will probably have started to stress the fibre teeth... I'm convinced that's what did mine in... the Repco re-co'ed motor was only about 2 years old when mine went.... but it had gone through a few "prolonged" drags by then.....

They (fibre ones) will also deteriorate with age... anyone with an original still in there is a time-bomb ticking...

frats,
Rosco