Seat Belt Laws in NSW

[dave a]

does anyone have any idea about the laws regarding seatbelts. for engineering do you need front and back or can you get away with front only. also does anyone know where to buy cheap seatbelts

[FBeing]

You don't need an engineer and you don't have to put them in both front and back
But they do save lives
You have to someone who is RTA certified to install them though
Having said that who would know?? As long as it's done safely

A company called Hemco sell belt kits in a range of colours and styles, not sure if they are the cheapest though

Have a dig around the RTA website for the actual policy on lap sash belts
Here's a link on child restraints to start your dig

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety/ch ... index.html

[DOLLER]

A bit late but;
I was talking with my engineer the other day and he has told me that I need to slip some 100x40x3 plate down the inside of the B pillar and bolt the Seat belt through that. The only issue I have with that is from what I can see, the top of the B pillar is closed over. I surfed the net and saw a couple other ways to do it but was wondering what other guys have done?? I would prefer not to hack the skin off the pillar Any idears???

[Cal]

I'm quite sure you only have to do that if you don't have the bolt going through the outside of the pillar. Some people don't like the visible bolt outside the car

[Trev]

The only way to do it to cut the pillar enough to slip the plate in plug weld it in and weld the pillar back up.

[Harv]

Dave,

My understanding in NSW is:
a) if you are undertaking modifications that require an engineers certificate, then seat belts must be installed for all seating positions. Lap/sash seat belts are required for all front and rear outboard seating positions. Lap/sash or lap belts shall be fitted to inboard seating positions. The level of safety provided by seat belts must not be reduced. Seat belts must not be replaced by belts of a lesser standard or with second-hand belts. For example, lap only belts must not be used in place of retracting lap/sash seat belts. The use of a retractable seat belt disabling device is not acceptable.This is based on the NSW RTA Vehicle Standards Information Sheets No 6. for light vehicle modifications.
b) if you do not require an engineers certificate, then you do not need to fit seatbelts. However, if you are carrying kiddies, the following apply:
Children younger than six months must be secured in a rearward facing restraint.
Children aged six months to under four years must be secured in either a rear or forward facing restraint.
Children aged four years to under seven years must be secured in forward facing child restraint or booster seat.
Children younger than four years cannot travel in the front seat of a vehicle with two or more rows.
Children aged four years to under seven years cannot travel in the front seat of a vehicle with two or more rows, unless all other back seats are occupied by children younger than seven years in a child restraint or booster seat.
I understand that the above child restraint laws are retrospective (i.e. that they are not "grandfathered" just because the FB/EK came out with no belts orginally). You would need to fit belts to meet the above.
d) if you are installing belts not for engineering certificates or for child restraint (but more for peace of mind) then you can choose which positions get belts and which don't.
c) Any installed seatbelts (even the peace of mind ones) must be approved by an RTA Authorised Restraint Fitting Station (http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/index ... tting.form). This is not an engineers certificate, just an inspection and basic form to sign off and fairly cheap (>$100). Most fitting Stations will not let you do the work yourself (to a decent standard) and then inspect and certify it - most will only certify if they do the work themselves (in the end it's their signature on the line). It pays to check with the one you have in mind before you fire up the drill and spanners to DIY.
d) Some Fitting Stations require full compliance to ADR5 (http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2009C ... 5628295870) when you install - there are some tricky bits in ADR/5 about how far apart the belts can be. Again, check with the Fitting Station you have in mind before flashing up the tools.
e) Most seatbelt installers require a minimum size of reinforcing plate to be used where you are bolting through a body structure. I can't remember where the legislation is for the minimum size for light vehicles, but seem to remember it is a mm2 requirement, not a "Xmm x Ymm" requirement. The bus/coach retrofit guidance (http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registration/ ... /vib49.pdf) indicates 3750mm2 (75mm x50mm).

I could be wrong with the above understanding of NSW legislation - happy to hear alternative views.

You have a number of options to fit the belts:
a) Frankenstein the bolts through the B-pillar. This can be ugly (bolt heads on the outside), though is common. If you are going to do this, take a look at the UNF bolt head, and imagine just how much surface area under that bolt head actually holds the load in place during an acident... it's bugger all, which is how one seatbelt installer convinced me it's not too great an idea. When you fit the bolts, you must either fir anti-crush tubes or used bolts that prevent crush of the pillar by design.
b) You can cut a slot in the inner B-pillar skin and lower the flat plates down. The slot is normally welded back up.
c) The method I used was a little different. I ended up using a hole saw to cut a hole (26mm from memory) into the B-pillar (inside the car) at about shoulder height. I used a reinforcing plate of around 6"x1" (correct mm2 size) with a captive nut welded on the back. The plate was a cad-plated off-the-shelf job from the Inspection Station. I drilled two 1/8" holes in the reinforcing plate, one at either end, and made similar holes in the B-pillar (one above the 23mm hole, one below). I put a piece of fishing line on the plate and dropped it into the hole (catch it with the fishing line). Use the fishing line to pull it up, then put the seatbelt bolt into the plate (can't fall down now). Hold it in place with the bolt, and put a pop-rivet through the B-pillar hole into the plate. Repeat the pop-rivet for the other hole. You end up with a hole in the pillar with the plate behind it - can cover the hole with a plastic cap, though the seatbelt top "pulley" bit covers most of the hole once it is bolted in place. Seems a bit funny leaving a hole there, but the surface area of the plate is a shitload bigger than the surface area of the bolt-head used in "Frankenstein" set-ups (much less likely to pull through in an impact). This is the same process reccomended by one US seatbelt manufacturer to refit old cars.

Most signatories will not accept 2nd hand belts from the wreckers. I'd reccomend HEMCO (http://hemco.com.au/seatbelts.html) - call them with the vehicle type, where you want the belts, what type and what colour and they will mail the right ones to you (at least they did for me with non-retractables into an FB - didn't try them out to see if they knew how to fit rolly belts).

Sorry for the epic novel above - took me a lot of fact-finding before I put belts into mine.

Cheers,
Harv.

[Harv]

Crap... another sticky.

As always gentlemen, caveat emptor - I'm no lawyer (let alone a policeman, prosecutor or judge), and my understanding of the law is based on my own opinions. You should form your own opinions on any legal angles as I may be wrong.

This is the US seatbelt supplier I was referring to in the previous post:
http://www.wescoperformance.com/3-point ... -door.html
Note they use a slightly different plate, and hole-saw in a slightly different place.

A 7/16"UNF bolt head (a.k.a Frankenstein bolts) have a surface area of just 235mm2... around 6% of the minimum area the RTA reccomends for reinforcing plates (the "shitload" in my previous post). Plates behind the pillar will hold 16 times the load that the Frankenstein bolts will.

Cheers,
Harv.

[matches]

i did mine by cutting a flap out under where the plate was to go then slid it in, welded it in, then welded the flap back down. quite easy to do and did away with the ugly bolt sticking right through like it used to have. i've got pics of it on page 16 of my thread in my fb/ek.
i had to fit seat belts to mine for all passengers because of changing engine (engineer ordered it).
cheers, luke.

[POPOK]

Are 4-point harnesses ADR approved? I would think they are better restraints than 3-point ones.

I am considering this option as a way of avoiding the B pillar entirely.

Cheers,

POPOK

[Harv]

4-point harnesses would need a pretty careful discussion with an engineer - may be beyond what an RTA Fitting Station will allow in their remit.

The hip straps are easy enough to bolt through (just like B-pillar ones), it's the shoulder straps that become a drama. You can put them down the back of the seat and mount them near the hip straps in the floorpan, though the mounting points will be close to the hip straps (the more you spread apart the mounting points, the weaker they are). Putting the hip and shoulder mounting points close together in the floorpan puts a considerable load on a localised area of the pan. It also transfers the load to the top of the seat frame - loads up the frame bolts/runners (the original ones at least are not too robust), and gives that load a long lever (the length of the seat frame) to apply the load to the bolts/runners (amplifies loading). Some guys solve this by running the shoulder straps back to the leading edge of the rear seat bolster, trailing edge of the squab or to the rear parcel shelf, though a lot of engineers deem that this obstructs the rear passengers, and require that the rear seats not be used at all (engineers certificate stating that vehicle is now a 2 seater , some mandate removal of rear seats in this case).

Not insurmountable I guess, but needs careful thought and discussion.

Cheers,
Harv.

[POPOK]

Thanks Harv,

Good input to the discussion. Since it's a ute, the 2-seater issue isn't a problem for me, and the mounts for the shoulder straps could go into the rear wall of the cab -- reinforced somehow -- or into the parcel shelf. I agree, a discussion would be required with the certifier, and your post has answered my query as to the feasibility of 4-point harnessing -- can be done, but with certification.

Thanks again,

POPOK

[Blacky]

What is the rest of the ute like ? If its original then a set of harnesses is going to look pretty weird ...........

[Timmy]

been pulled over for a bretho with no belts, as you dont need em if the car is original and never came out with em, cop was fine

[WayneXG95]

I got through a blue slip twice and I installed the belts myself.
I brought the belts from the local auto shop. HQ style.

[bootlegger]

Look in an old stock car you can get away with anything. Id be fitting at least a lap sash belt.
Even second hand ones out of an undamaged car shoukd still be ok. He original pillar bolts acted sort of like a crush tube.
I was wearing a lap belt in the accident I just had. My whole body went into the steering column and dash and I got pretty smashed up. I still cant believe im alive. The whole cabin is full of blood.
I know when I rebuild my vette it will have a full racing harness.
I dont care if the rivet counters want to pick on it