starter motor swap

EK JAY · Post by **EK JAY** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:16 pm

does anyone know if a red 202 starter motor
or a grey motor starter motor

will fit a 186
reason being mine wont engage when the motor is hot by turning the key
but if you get out and arc it with a screw driver so the starter motor spins
then get back in and turn the key it works

is it the starter motor or could it be something else making it do this

any info is appreciated

jay

FB MAD · Post by **FB MAD** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:51 pm

Sounds like a sticky solenoid to me or dirty internal solenoid contacts.Fixed by replacing the soleniod with a new one or good working used one.Or they can be fixed by unsoldering the bakelite end cap on the solenoid and cleaning up the solenoid workings and contacts and resoldering the end cap back on.

Red 202 starter is same as any other red starter motor so it will fit 186.Not sure on grey starter to red motor fitment, never tried it, always used red motor starters in a red motored car.

EK JAY · Post by **EK JAY** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:00 pm

thanks for the info terry i think i will pull the starter out
and put the 202 one in and go from there just wanted to
make sure it was going to fit
jay

FB MAD · Post by **FB MAD** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:16 pm

Or it could be something as simple as dirty battery connections/starter cable to starter motor connection etc, try that first.

EK JAY · Post by **EK JAY** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 8:39 am

yeah im not sure Terry it starts fine when its cold
just after its been running for a while and you turn it off
leave it for 10 minutes come back and try to start it and
nothing till you zap it then it will go

V8EK4us · Post by **V8EK4us** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:52 pm

If it goes after a tap then I would definately be checking the wiring connections, if ok then change the solenoid as Terry suggested....classic symptoms!

FB MAD · Post by **FB MAD** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:35 pm

A lot of cars I remember that were made in the '80's had problems with starter motors when the engine was hot.

Some, but not all of this problem was alleviated by putting a heat shield between the starter and engine/exhaust manifold and/or fitment of a starter relay in the solenoid activation circuit.

Heat sheilds are still put around starters to this day in some cars.Heat will affect performance of electrical devices.Generally the colder an electrical device is,the better if will work.This may partly explain your starter working fine when cold and not when hot.

I still think your prob could be a sticky solenoid and maybe ?? a lazy starter due to poleing of the armature on the magnets in the housing ( caused by worn starter bushes ).

If you've got another red motor starter whack it in and see how it goes.If the problem is fixed, do a post mortem on your old starter and see how it looks inside.

Like V8EK4us said, check the conections first as that costs only your time.

rosco · Post by **rosco** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:32 am

All the above - and I can't think of anything else....at present...

From memory - the starter motor from a grey has three mounting bolts - a red only two.... may be wrong - can't remember......sorry.

Disconnect, clean, re-fit and tighten - first part of the procedure....

I'm leaning towards solenoid -
When you turn the key when it's hot and won't start - do you get any noise at all?

If you get a loud click or clack when you turn the key - it would indicate that the solenoid is "pulling" in - and would suggest either the connection is not being made to the starter motor or the motor does not respond......

It could be the contacts in the solenoid not making with the starter motor or an intermittent connection - but I would lean towards it making when hot not breaking......

I replaced the guts of my solenoid recently - it had a cracked casing cover - Burson's sell an overhaul kit - there's enough parts in there to suit all applications - don't think it was over the top, price-wise and was the Bosch kit.....

That's where I'd leave it to replace or have it repaired - solenoids - yes.... starter motors.... not for me - other than fixing broken leads/connections....

And.... I don't think there was a shield in the grey application - but I certainly made sure I put one in for the red...... I am of the opinion that the grey exhaust manifold ran a lot further away than the HR/HK T G etc......from the starter motor...... my red was from an EH - I think the same as a HD - something tells me the exhaust manifold from both of these were a bit different to the later reds.... the inlet definitely was...

I ended up putting in both from HR - can't remember if the shield came from EH - or if even they were fitted EH/HD..... have to look in the manual.....

frats,
Rosco

about the fifth edit to this.... ummmm....

not that I think it relevant, but something is nagging me about jamming a screwdriver between the starter motor and bell-housing to get a proper earth - I can't see how this would make any difference as the bolts/mating surfaces of both should be sound... but..... long, long time ago....... in a land far, far away......... and if it works - presto (especially if on the side of the road)..... don't like the chances of making one jot of difference but.... I'd try it prior to pulling anything apart... pretty quick shot at getting it going......

EK JAY · Post by **EK JAY** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:44 am

Rosco
this is what happens starts perfect when cold first pop
if i drive to katoomba approx 12km away park it turn it off
and try to start it again straight away it starts first pop
i then go into the shop approx 20 minutes come back out
try to start and nothing but ignition lights not a sound
so i then get the screw driver and arc it between the two
bolts on the starter where batery leed connects just so
the starter spins not earthed so it doesnt engage then get back
in and turn the key and pop she starts very frustrating i think
its a heat thing myself but

i will make up a heat sheild and replace the starter and hope
that solves the problem have you got any pics
of a heat sheild

jay

FB MAD · Post by **FB MAD** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:28 pm

Jay, I'd just replace the starter with a known working starter and see how that goes without going to the trouble of manufacturing a heat shield at this point.

As I wrote before, heat affects the performance of electrical devices and the underbonnet heat build up after a run can be substantial enough to start to affect the starters capability.That said, one starter motor can be affected by heat enough to cause problems but another starter may not be affected by heat at all.A worn starter/problematic solenoid wouldn't help the situation if that were the case either.

The starter would be cool enough when the car is moving with the underbonnet airflow but the heat that stays underbonnet after a stop has really no where to go and there is quite a deal of post-run pent up heat that stays in the engine bay for a fair while.Thats one reason why years ago a lot of older car owners would open up their bonnets when they stopped for a period of time, both to allow the engine to cool a bit and to help stop starter problems due to heat build up when they were ready to go on their way again.

That's why a heat sheild is fitted to a starter, not really any use when moving ( because airflow cools the starter enough ) but the heat shield can reduce heat transfer to the starter when the car stops for any length of time.

EK JAY · Post by **EK JAY** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:48 pm

thanks terry and rosco you have been verry informative
i will put another starter in and see how it performs

i have headers on the 186 and there pretty close to the starter
so it would get hot quickly any way i will let you know how it goes

rosco · Post by **rosco** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:07 pm

Sure Jay - let us know..... good luck with it.

Headers - yes, have a set for mine, but I run the standard HR inlet manifold and cannot fit it without removing part of the water heating jacket...... have a dual throat manifold but haven't got to working on how to fit a standard carb to it......yet.....

Think Terry has a lot more accurate advice on your starter problems - I've only had solenoid issues.... I don't know if it's co-incidental in relation to the screwdriver use, I'm still working on that one......

thanks for the update..

frats,
Rosco

oldnek · Post by **oldnek** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:15 am

Jay, How did you get on with your starter issue.....

John

Cal · Post by **Cal** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:54 am

I was having similar problems when I put extractors onto one of my old red motors. One of the pipes sits so close to the starter that you get heat related issues. I was going through about 2 starter motors a year.

The worst part is you had to literally unbolt the extractors and intake manifold from the head to be able to get to it.

Anyway, a very crude heat shield seemed to solve it.

oldgmh · Post by **oldgmh** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:09 pm

Starter motors from all red and blue engines are interchangeable, however there are physically large and smaller sizes.

Usually the commodore blue engine starters are smaller and are easier to fit.

The blue engines (3.3) had smaller starters to fit in behind the factory headers - so are easier to fit if you have aftermarket extractors fitted.

If the starter works when cold but not when hot then it is due to voltage drop from heat soak. Fitting a relay for the solenoid wire will fix the problem.