harvs ek 327 wagon

[ardiesse]

Advocatus Diaboli:

Electronics is (are) good. Say I who work in the field. Except when things go wrong.

There's an electromechanical ignition technology developed by a very cluey American engineer by the name of Kettering: spring-loaded precious-metal contacts opened and closed by a cam on the distributor shaft. In combination with a parallel capacitor and an ignition coil (thanks to Michael Faraday), small lightning bolts are produced on demand and conducted to the spark plug in question.

It's low-tech, not terribly sophisticated, moving parts wear and go out of adjustment. But very easy to troubleshoot. Eyes and feeler gauges are usually sufficient. If you want to get flash, a multimeter is useful.

I suppose my question is this: How much of a performance penalty would you pay by going back to a distributor with points?

Rob

[Harv]

I should have taken your advice four years ago:

Electronic stuff is good, but only as long as it works.

When I first pictured this thing, it had a simple points dizzy. Those I understand.

The engine builder decided an MSD variable reluctance setup (no points, internal "module") would be required. He has built a good number of engines, and came recommended by Stan Sainty, so I went with it. I kinda understand how it works, all bar the module bit.

I kept blowing rotors. That was my fault - had never made my own leads before, bodgied up the first one I made, it had such terrible resistance that the lightning had nowhere to go... so blew a hole to earth through the rotor. Fixed my poor lead, and no more rotor issues.

It cooked the module. By this stage I was no longer convinced of the engine builder, and sought advice from the dyno gentleman (an ignition specialist, and recommended by Carb Service Centre if my memory is right). He suggested gutting the module out, and running an MSD Streetfire CDI box. I understand that a little better than the module.

It gets driven intermittently, and corrosion got the better of the MSD. Fixed the corrosion.

Corrosion came back again. Replace dizzy with a module-gutted off-brand dizzy, variable reluctance again, still with the MSD box. Ran well for a while, now wants to advance itself to the moon.

I guess we'll see what shenanigans happen next weekend. You're probably right that points would lose me little. To be honest, the internals in this thing were built for giggle gas, so I could recoup it if I had to.

Made me check though. This thing has done 61 passes down the Great Black Dyno, and got home under it's own steam all but once (when Number One Son grenaded the diff). It's done a lot of freeway miles with the trailer, helped teach three kids to drive, knows it's own way to the bottlo, and hauls a lot of groceries. I guess with this much use I shouldn't complain.

Cheers,
Harv

[Brett027]

Oops, my mistake. I thought we were having a sensible discussion.

[Harv]

Oops, my mistake. I thought we were having a sensible discussion.

Sensible, yes. Apologies though as I am not a fan of the ICE stuff. It is twice the price of what I have, and there is some resistance to selling just individual components. For now, I'm hoping to get what I have to work.

Cheers,
Harv

[Brett027]

Depends what you are looking for I guess. A complete ICE set up is worth a little extra. I'm not suprised they wont sell bits and pieces because they want their customers to have a reliable, adjustable and high performing bit of kit that they know will work. If you muck about with odds and sods and think it's all going to go well in the end, then your mate with the tilt tray will be on direct dial. If you are even contemplating going backwards in technology to points, I am flabergasted.
That being said, as the song says " you can go your own way..."

Apologies for being a bit acidic today but I have have read and seen photos of some pretty appalling crap on this forum lately and its starting to anoy me.

[FireKraka]

Enlighten me Brett what do you mean "stuff on this forum"

[Blacky]

Apologies for being a bit acidic today but I have have read and seen photos of some pretty appalling crap on this forum lately and its starting to anoy me.

This would undoubtedly be the most kid friendly , tolerant and drama free forum I am on by a LONG way ..... and don't get me started on Facebook

[Brett027]

Agree with all that, but more and more the forum is a social club and less and less a resource for people with EK and FB cars. I get it that people are friends and that's great, but if you look at who and what is being posted from one day to the next, it's a very small group of people who are mostly engaged in chit chat that is often only connected by car ownership. I have a few mates around me who are doing up FBs and EKs and they rarely look at the forum because there is nothing happening except a handful of mates catching up.

Another example of the way its going is people posting chasing after parts. A perfect use of the forum, but once you post and get a response take the conversation over to messages about how and when you are going to follow it up. We also have posts that are pages and pages about things that are not in anyway about FB and EKs.

In terms of facebook in comparison, I agree there is all sorts of crap advice given there ( including some from our forum warriors) and the occasional moron. Often it is not trusted or experienced advice, the type you would hope would be the content of this forum. However, there are women and youngsters with FBs and EKs looking for info using facebook, there are absoluelty zero on this forum. Why?

Finally, there is some really dodgy stuff being posted here which is lowering the value of the resource. Sure, it's all good intentioned, but it is poor practice. A recent example is pulling down an engine that has obvious corrosion on the deck but just putting it back together without any machining and pretending that that's the job done. Maybe it is, but is that what we should be showing others to do without at least acknowledging that it could be done better? The discussion about points is another classic example of pure nonsense. Anyone who has ever used a dwell meter and a feeler gauge will know why points were got rid of ASAP.

I am probably on my own here on all this, because we are self selecting as a group. That's fine. But, the group of people who are posting is pretty small and the content pretty much self focussed. This post is one also. I will get back in the naughty corner now.

[EK283]

I have used this forum for lots of advice, both giving and recieving and have met and made friends with most of the contributors on here.

Its like anything in life, theres good, the bad and the ugly. On this forum I choose to like the lot, the serious make me think and the clowns make me laugh.
As for the content, a perfectionist would understandably get frustrated but thats not the reason a forum exists, its merely a tool to get people who have the same interest to share read their expieriences, whether technical or not.

I enjoy the banter, don't judge and to be honest I would like to contribute more but I just don't live and breath FB or EK, my time does go elswhere.

On a side note, i have electronic gear, petronix, MSD, holley and have not had any issues to date. My EK has the holley sniper 2 and the matching dizzy, it goes brilliant. The hardest part for old geezers like us is the understanding of how to wire them correctly and how to use the correct methods of testing. Easy once you know how !!! Gotta go, Iv'e just had the urge to drive the old girl !!!!!!!

Greg

[Mick]

Agree with all that, but more and more the forum is a social club and less and less a resource for people with EK and FB cars. I get it that people are friends and that's great, but if you look at who and what is being posted from one day to the next, it's a very small group of people who are mostly engaged in chit chat that is often only connected by car ownership. I have a few mates around me who are doing up FBs and EKs and they rarely look at the forum because there is nothing happening except a handful of mates catching up.

Another example of the way its going is people posting chasing after parts. A perfect use of the forum, but once you post and get a response take the conversation over to messages about how and when you are going to follow it up. We also have posts that are pages and pages about things that are not in anyway about FB and EKs.

In terms of facebook in comparison, I agree there is all sorts of crap advice given there ( including some from our forum warriors) and the occasional moron. Often it is not trusted or experienced advice, the type you would hope would be the content of this forum. However, there are women and youngsters with FBs and EKs looking for info using facebook, there are absoluelty zero on this forum. Why?

Finally, there is some really dodgy stuff being posted here which is lowering the value of the resource. Sure, it's all good intentioned, but it is poor practice. A recent example is pulling down an engine that has obvious corrosion on the deck but just putting it back together without any machining and pretending that that's the job done. Maybe it is, but is that what we should be showing others to do without at least acknowledging that it could be done better? The discussion about points is another classic example of pure nonsense. Anyone who has ever used a dwell meter and a feeler gauge will know why points were got rid of ASAP.

I am probably on my own here on all this, because we are self selecting as a group. That's fine. But, the group of people who are posting is pretty small and the content pretty much self focussed. This post is one also. I will get back in the naughty corner now.

JEEZUS lucky i don't post build stuff if you think some of the stuff posted here is shonky but my shonky sh!t seems to work i do a LOT of trouble free miles and cars that i built up to 30 years ago are still going strong, being a perfectionist doesn't always mean things are perfect

[Harv]

Think we have found the problem with the new off-brand dizzy.

Took it over to the workshop, and they put a timing light on it. Same as I saw - under revs, the timing heads past 40 and on to the moon. Interesting that they tested another couple of leads, and found some had erratic timing - TDC, 5, 20, 10, TDC again etc all on one lead.

Unplug MSD ignition box, and plug in module with some temporary leads. Timing still doing the same thing, so unlikely to be the MSD box. Much more likely to be the reluctor pickup. Put an ohmmeter across the coil, looking for about 1350Ω. Pickup tested at 1100Ω, so is the likely culprit. An early-life failure.

The off-brand ones are of unknown quality. Bosch don't make them anymore, and the best source is Tridon. Onto evilBay and ordered one. Will see what happens when it arrives.

Learnt one good lesson - the MSD CDS box really does a significant job. The difference between the box plugged in and the standard module was noticeable at the same timing. Much healthier with the box running, enough to make me avoid the temptation to return to points.

Cheers,
Harv

[Harv]

Having one of those weeks where I have the Midas touch - everything I touch turns to @#$%.

Bought a Tridon pickup coil for the dizzy through eBay. Seller contacts me, part is still available by Tridon now include the reluctor wheel. Costs $15 more. After an enlightening discussion I ponied up the extra. When it arrived, it was not Tridon... some off-brand of unknown quality. Sent Tridon some photos, who confirmed it was not theirs. Contacted the seller who swears it is a Tridon part, just a later one. Three phone calls chasing the part number from him and his phone gets disconnected. Caveat emptor.

Lots of Googling, can't find NOS Tridon gear anywhere, other than this seller. Gave up, decided to use the new off-brand coil. Pulled the dizzy and dropped it off to have the new coil soldered in.

The car had blurted out small amounts of coolant in the last journey, and I figured hot days and timing running all over the place had caused it. The last trip was only 10m or so up the driveway, car still cold, and it leaked again. Hmmm.... mebbe not timing. Leak from the drivers rear of the engine got me fearing a welch plug changeout (can barely change spark plugs, let along a welch plug). Pressure tester on the radiator and tracked it back, and turns out the thermostat housing o-ring had let go. Much better than a welch plug. Dropped the top radiator hose in preparation, and about 2 cups of water drained out of the hose.

... and ran down the valley and probably into the 2" open hole where the dizzy normally lives. Elvis reckoned there would be peace in the valley, but sure not at my house. Replace thermostat o-ring, pressure test, top up coolant, clean up mess in the valley, change oil and filter to get rid of any coolant.

Dizzy back with new pickup coil, install and test. Idle looks OK (16º, and not dancing around like it was). Gingerly up through the revs and it peaks out at 36º. Perfect.

Short trip to the shops, and all runs well. Longer trip out to Eastern Creek to drop off the sump oil and engage in some more spirited driving. Still pinging under load. Dammit. Some soul searching to do, but that ICE ignition setup is looking better and better.

In the meantime, I managed to break Grace's ute. More on that on the other thread.

Cheers,
Harv

[Errol62]

I hope your day gets better mate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Blacky]

I am glad its not just me - I feel your pain brother ..............

[Errol62]

Look for the light at the end of the tunnel mate, and hope it isn’t an oncoming train. I am pinching myself that my ute finally appears to be running sweet.


FB ute fixer upper, EK van on rotisserie