Harv's (Grace's) EK ute

[ardiesse]

Harv,

This is a train-of-thought reply, so be warned -

I can only think that flogging out the rotor is caused by mechanical interference between the rotor and the cap. The only rotor I busted I busted because the cap wasn't seated squarely on the distributor body. But best to check that the cap sits properly on the body.

Thinks - if the lower thrust washer is gone - the one between the drive gear and the distributor body - the shaft and everything attached to it will sit higher than their designed locations, and this may cause trouble. If you can move the shaft up and down in the body more than a few thou, the thrust washer will need replacement.

Another possibility (unlikely) is wear in the bushes, and a loose fit between the shaft and the cam. The clearances may add up to cause the tip of the rotor to hit the cap.

Loose retaining spring in the rotor? The rotor is unbalanced, and if the retaining spring is weak, centrifugal force will cause the rotor to run out of true.

I am prepared to give a short course in the reconditioning of distributors.

Rob

[Errol62]

Got to be an issue with shaft to cap alignment. Side play in the shaft? Worn bush/body. Got couple here if you want I can send one.

FB ute driver, EK van project

[Harv]

Thanks gents.

The reco dizzy arrived today. It is a thing of beauty - all sharp lines, no slop. I imagine this is what it looked like when you bought a new one in the 60's. David Andrews does some mighty fine work.

Planning on changing it out tomorrow afternoon. Grace wants to lend a hand so that she better understands how a dizzy works.

Cheers,
Harv

[Harv]

Got the dizzy ready, and Grace gave me a hand to throw it in. Would not, could not get the dizzy to drop into the oil pump.

Tried turning the pump with a screwdriver, no dice. Using the same trick I could drop in the old dizzy one tooth advanced, spot on, or one tooth retarded... just could not get the new dizzy to play.

Checked clamp-to-oil pump distance on the new one, all good.

Tried leaning on the dizzy whilst rocking the motor, no good.

After 3 hours of fighting it, I admitted defeat. Car has to go back to Port Macquarie this week, and started to wonder how to get Grace there without the ute. Figured either I was missing something stupid, or had to find another dizzy. Would normally park the problem in the naughty corner for another day, but not this time.

Gave Rob a call in the hope he could shed some light on my drama. Rob dropped over, and spotted the problem - the new dizzy o-ring was waaaaay too proud. It was smooshing out the top of the block, holding out the dizzy. Some greasing and a lot more force from Rob and it dropped in. Fired up wonderfully.

Many thanks Rob for the assist - at times a second set of calm, clear eyes are invaluable.

With the old dizzy out, Rob also spotted the likely cause of the rotor eating (queue CSI music.... Whoooo are you? Who who who who?”). The vac advance is a later unit, and had been cobbled on with homemade brackets. I’d never noticed the funky advance unit as it is similar in shape to my FB one.

20047034-E5D4-40AD-AB35-B4E7F9720EEE.jpeg (2.12 MiB) Viewed 738 times

One of the dodgy brackets was holding the cap askew... just, but just enough to flog out the rotor over time.

Cheers,
Harv

[Brett027]

Glad you got it sorted Harv. Rob is a handy fellow to have nearby. Wish you were all a bit closer to me.

[ardiesse]

Brett,

I was only an hour's drive away at Yass the weekend before . . .

Rob

[Brett027]

You're always welcome Rob. You know where we are.

[Harv]

It never rains, it pours.

With the new dizzy in, Grace pooted around the suburbs for a few days. No dramas. To rebuild confidence, I figured it needed a good highway run. Set out to go from Greystanes to Springwood and back - good half an hour at highway speed each way and a solid hillclimb too. Lined up to follow her in the wagon, and started off.

Made it as far as Prospect, 3km away. The ute farted twice and stopped dead. Towed it home with the wagon through heavy traffic. Hoping the darkness covered my shame and embarrassment. The child is learning important life skills, like towing.

Plenty of fuel, spark to the dizzy, and spark at #1. Must be timing. Dizzy cap off, and rotor is tight on shaft though the brass contact on top is slightly loose. Swore. Tried the spare rotor, no go. Checked dizzy has not moved - it is rock solid due to the clamp, the tight new o-ring and the new vac advance line.

Car seems to be cranking slightly fast. Perhaps timing gear methinks? Checked rockers (which were rocking), fuel pump (which filled glass dome) and dizzy (which spins with the crank). Didn't feel like timing gear.

Rocker cover off, turn motor until #6 is rocking, check dizzy. Dizzy and rockers are still OK - rotor pointing to #1 when #6 is rocking. So cam and dizzy are still meshed together correctly. Check timing ball - its waaaaaay out of the window. Some work with paint marker and protractor shows the dizzy and valve train are 60 dizzy-degrees (120 crank-degrees) retarded... the engine is basically trying to fire #4 when #1 is ready for spark. No wonder it won't run when the timing is that tardy.

Turn engine over by fan, and carefully watch dizzy. I can turn the fan perhaps half a blade (1/8 turn) and can see the flywheel moving but the dizzy doesn't. Swore again.

Looks like I've partially stripped the timing gear. Perhaps like a prize fighter it has spat a few teeth out and tried to keep going. Seems my Anzac weekend will be a timing gear change.

Checked the spare parts department, and stole a VRS gasket set and steel timing gear from the meth monster parts stash. The FB looked at me mournfully from under the car cover, steering half in pieces, wondering when I will get round to it again.

Cleaned some space on the bench, and started the teardown. Dizzy looks OK, no damage to the gear (as suspected). Radiator, coil, dizzy, rocker cover off before it got dark, cold and skeetery. More this afternoon.

Onwards and upwards.

Cheers,
Harv

[Brett027]

Gee Harv, you have more than your fair share of troubles. I love 'skeetery'. It's up there with 'magic smoke'. Good luck today

[FJWALLY]

Bugger Harv - is it an alloy timing gear or still the fibre type?
Hopefully the rest of it is all ok and you haven't bent any rods etc.

[Errol62]

Damn. Mekaniky gods not happy.


FB ute fixer upper, EK van on rotisserie

[In the Shed]

Bugger....... You must have somehow offended the grey motor gods?

[Harv]

Got some stuff done in the morning, and back onto the ute in the afternoon.

A bit cautious around taking too much off... what if it's not the timing gear? Harmonic balancer off, timing cover off. Hoping to see a heap of fibre fluff in the bottom of the timing cover, or a couple of missing teeth.

Nope. Fibre gear looks perfect. Slightly oily from the squirter, teeth all intact, beautiful crisp edges. Roll the motor over, and the dots on the timing gear and crank gear line up. Swore. Stepped back and did some thinking.

With the two dots lined up, the flywheel timing ball is in the window. So flywheel, crank, crank gear and timing gear are all meshed correctly. Doubted my earlier work (you idiot... you pulled half the car apart and it's not a timing gear?), so checked #6. Definitely not rocking as it should be when the two dots are lined up/timing ball in the window. Exhaust valve open, inlet shut, moving crank either way only moves the exhaust. If it was rocking, then moving the crank either way would make each valve twitch. Hmmmmm....

Took a lot closer look at the old fibre timing gear, and compared it to the new shiny steel one. Compared the location of the keyway with the dot. The nice shiny new one has about 80 degrees between the keyway and dot:

Should look like this.jpg (97.14 KiB) Viewed 631 times

The old fibre gear has 200 degrees between the keyway and the dot:

Should not look like this.jpg (79.36 KiB) Viewed 631 times

Eureka! Got you, you !@#$*$&. The old fibre timing gear has spun the fibre outer on the steel inner. It's spun it by 120 degrees... exactly what the previous work with paint markers and protactor showed the crank and valve train were out by. Double checked the keyway/dot on another steel timing gear (matched iron crank/cam set destined for the meth monster) and it agrees.

Theory now is that the timing gear was slipping around, and the slippage did not help the dizzy rotor (sudden load changes). The cap being on an angle would not have helped, and the rotor copped the damage. Unusual though. I've heard of the aluminium timing gears spinning on the steel inner, but not the fibre ones. Anyone seen this before?

Fuel pump off, plugs out, sideplate, rockers, pushrods, followers, indicators, grille, thrust plate bolts then lumpy stick out.

Have organised alternate transport for Grace, so have a little more time to get this back together. The grand plan has been to put the worked head off the FB onto the ute once the FB gets the Repco head (the worked head is neat... done by Joe Gatt before he passed away). There's a few other odds and ends stashed away that would also suit (triple Strommies, roller rockers and Myers headers). A more bumpy lumpstick would help... and if I'm going to do so, then now is the time.

Looks like a call to Clive Cams on Tuesday, then reassembly with a new timing gear and a rougher idle

Cheers,
Harv

[Blacky]

nice sleuthing

[ardiesse]

Well done.

The false-positive diagnosis of a stripped timing gear has got me too in the past. No compression, cranks over too fast, no. 6 and 7 rockers not rocking . . . engine out, timing cover off, and all teeth present and accounted for. It was stuck inlet valves and six bent pushrods.

I've had timing gear come loose on the camshaft (father's FJ, father's HR, my Humpy),
badly worn teeth at 60-camshaft-degree intervals (my Humpy),
two missing teeth (my Humpy, the engine still ran);
but this is the first Bakelite loose on the steel hub that I've seen.

OK, so here's an hypothesis -

Why did I have to feed in so much ignition advance from "on the ball" to get Grace's ute running properly? I reckon it's because the timing gear may already have slipped a few degrees at the time of distributor replacement.

Rob