harvs ek 327 wagon

[Harv]

I like Kettering. No magic smoke. One of his fine products is sitting in the spare, Smokey runner 327. It is taking all my willpower to not cannibalise it. One last throw of the dice for the engine “experts” (builder and tuner) to get it right.

Cheers,
Harv

[EK283]

Harv,

I'm very sure you need to control the volts into these units because of the overheating issue you have just had the pleasure dealing with.

I have to look at my ignition but I'm positive the coil must be compatible with the electronic module. I pretty sure it must have 10volts coming out of the positive side only.

I need to have a look but I do remember studying coil voltage, I don't think these ignitions last long with a GT40 coil etc etc.

Regards Greg

[Harv]

Got me thinking.

The coil (MSD Blaster SS, part number 8207) has a warning "If installing the Blaster SS Coil to a points distributor or a non-current limiting ignition system without an MSD ignition, a 0.8 ohm ballast resistor is required (MSD PN 8214). The resistor should wire in the positive coil wire".

Damn... maybe I fed the thing 12V and shouldn't have.

Then I checked the dizzy paperwork (MSD PN 8360). The wiring diagram shows +12V from ignition to coil, and from there to the dizzy electronics plug. There is an addendum that came with the paperwork that says "Many vehicles, primarily those that were originally equipped with breaker points, have resistance wiring or a ballast resistor in the coil positive (+) wiring. This reduce the voltage at the coil positive terminal. An MSD Ready-to-Run Distributor requires a solid 12 volts to perform at its full potential. By adding a relay, PN 8961, you can ensure that the distributor receives a full 12 volts during cranking and while running.

So I think I am OK - coil can deal with 12V (or 10V), and dizzy needs 12V.

Cheers,
Harv

[EK283]

Hi Harv,

Just as a matter of interest do you know the resistance winding values of your coil ?

This is bugging me as I don't like when stuff just burns out, especially when someone quotes "you will regret using one"

I kneed to know why why why ????

Greg

[Harv]

4.27kohm on the secondary, and 0.1ohm on the primary (though the 0.1ohm is at the lower range of my Fluke meter).

Cheers,
Harv

[ardiesse]

Harv,

0.1 ohms will be the lead resistance on your Fluke multimeter. If you can't tell any difference between readings with leads shorted together and when measuring the primary of your ignition coil, I'd suspect that your ignition coil primary is shorted.

A "normal" coil will have a primary resistance of about (why am I trying to figure it out when I can just go measure it - please hold)

3.3 ohms for a 12V Lucas grey-motor coil, and I'd guess of the order of 2 ohms for a coil that needs a ballast resistor.

Rob

[Harv]

Definitely some sort or resistance their... different to shorting the leads. The meter (Fluke 365) is good for 0-6kohm, give or take 1%. A little dicey at either end of the scale.

The MSD design spec on the coil is 4.4kohms on the secondary, and only 0.355ohm on the primary. Seems I'm a little low... could well be the trouble.

Cheers,
Harv

[ardiesse]

You could put that nicely repaired VRA meter of yours to some good use . . .

Connect the ammeter in series with the coil primary (ammeter black lead to coil +), connect the voltmeter across the coil primary, engage the series resistor and set it to maximum resistance, connect the ammeter red lead to the battery +, and have a jumper lead ready to connect the coil (-) to battery (-).

Grab one of the youngsters to play the part of Beaker, with notepad and pen.

Connect the jumper lead to battery (-), and adjust the variable resistor until you get 3 - 5 A current (or the minimum current if greater than 5 A). Note down the current and voltage readings. Disconnect battery. Apply Ohm's Law to calculate coil primary resistance.

Rob

[Harv]

I will have a play.

Why can I hear that Kettering bloke laughing in the distance, snickering "... he didn't see the 40kV coming".

Methinks No 1 Son best play Beaker.

Cheers,
Harv

[Harv]

Had a good conversation with the dyno bloke, and settled on an ignition upgrade. Bought an MSD Streetfire box. It’s like a simple version of the 6AL type boxes... think of it as a massive capacitor. Sent the dizzy to the gentleman, who removed the internal module (yep... it was fried) and wired in the box. No more electronics in the dizzy. He ran it up on the dizzy bench, all good. Coil resistances spot-on.

Got the bits back, and wired it all up. Going by the size of the power leads, this thing must draw some serious amps. Put it all back together, and kicked it in the guts.

Nothing.

$&@“.

No spark at the plugs.
Checked wiring. All good. What idiot tidied it all up in split loom, making it hard to check?
Checked power. All good. No LED on the box though.
Made sure earths were clean. All good.
Realised I’d mounted the box on the wooden glovebox. Maybe the box chassis needs to be earthed. Tested, and yes the box chassis is isolated from the box’s big earth lead. Ran a seperate box chassis earth. No success.
Doubted myself, and thought I might have been 180-out. Turned dizzy. No success.
Re-read instructions for eighth time.
Followed MSD test procedure - big fat spark out of the coil. Nothing at the leads. Looking hopeful... problem is in the dizzy.

Called the dyno bloke, who did the right thing and dropped over this morning. Retain all the checks. Pulled the dizzy apart, and the big rotor had crapped out. Big burn marks under the assembly, short to earth. Remind me never to act as the earth path for that capacitive discharge box

211B9970-6313-4C80-B3B2-9689C23EC180.jpeg (68.48 KiB) Viewed 562 times

Off to buy a new rotor tomorrow. Hopefully noise by the afternoon.

Cheers,
Harv

[FJWALLY]

Had a good conversation with the dyno bloke, and settled on an ignition upgrade. Bought an MSD Streetfire box. It’s like a simple version of the 6AL type boxes... think of it as a massive capacitor. Sent the dizzy to the gentleman, who removed the internal module (yep... it was fried) and wired in the box. No more electronics in the dizzy. He ran it up on the dizzy bench, all good. Coil resistances spot-on.

Got the bits back, and wired it all up. Going by the size of the power leads, this thing must draw some serious amps. Put it all back together, and kicked it in the guts.

Nothing.

$&@“.

No spark at the plugs.
Checked wiring. All good. What idiot tidied it all up in split loom, making it hard to check?
Checked power. All good. No LED on the box though.
Made sure earths were clean. All good.
Realised I’d mounted the box on the wooden glovebox. Maybe the box chassis needs to be earthed. Tested, and yes the box chassis is isolated from the box’s big earth lead. Ran a seperate box chassis earth. No success.
Doubted myself, and thought I might have been 180-out. Turned dizzy. No success.
Re-read instructions for eighth time.
Followed MSD test procedure - big fat spark out of the coil. Nothing at the leads. Looking hopeful... problem is in the dizzy.

Called the dyno bloke, who did the right thing and dropped over this morning. Retain all the checks. Pulled the dizzy apart, and the big rotor had crapped out. Big burn marks under the assembly, short to earth. Remind me never to act as the earth path for that capacitive discharge box

211B9970-6313-4C80-B3B2-9689C23EC180.jpeg

Off to buy a new rotor tomorrow. Hopefully noise by the afternoon.

Cheers,
Harv

What a journey Harv - hope it’s sorted today for you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Errol62]

Wonder why it did that. Let’s hope it’s a one off. Maybe the unearthed box?


FB ute fixer upper, EK van on rotisserie

[Harv]

Not sure. When I pulled the dizzy out a week or so ago, the rotor central steel "tang" that contacts the central coil lead was bent. Suspect it was bent when the engine was being rebuilt. Not so bent that it wouldn't work, just not square. The dyno guy straightened it out by hand. The tang is held on by a screw. Maybe he tightened the screw, or the bending flexed it. The screw is blind, but it looks like the bottom of the blind hole has cracked. Power from box to coil to central coil lead to tang to screw to crack to guts of dizzy to earth.

Cheers,
Harv

[Harv]

New rotor button, boxed everything up, and hit the go button. It fired and ran

... then stopped

Must be cold. Try again.

Restarts easy, runs up OK, then stops after 20 seconds. Hmmm.....

It's got an electric fuel pump, and I fitted a safety switch to it (Peel Instruments CP30) years ago. When the ignition is first turned on, the little black box runs the fuel pump for 2.5 seconds to prime the bowls. It then looks at the coil low-tension negative post, and is looking for the pulses as the coil fires. The car starts, nice pulses on the coil negative, and the little black box turns on the fuel pump. If the engine stops, the pulses do too, and the little black box turns off the fuel pump. It stops the fuel pump feeding a fire during an accident.

Turns out the little black box doesn't like to play with the MSD ignition box. The little black box is looking for a peak of at least 3V, and then a trough where the coil voltage drops right off. The MSD box is a capacitive discharge unit. It gives multiple spark signals to each plug, very rapidly. As far as the little black box can see, there is no "trough" in the coil signal, and hence it will not let the pump run.

Capacitive discharge ignition voltage.png (36.31 KiB) Viewed 523 times

Bypassed the little black box, and off it went. Runs well. Spoke to Peel Instruments, and they reckon I can take the little black box lead off the coil negative, and wrap it around one of the high-tension plug leads 7-8 times. The spark plug zap will be enough to induce current in the coiled wire, simulating a signal to the little black box. Because the little black box is only seeing every 8th plug firing, it will think that there is a pulsing current. Haven't tried this yet (it seems a little dodgy, and to be honest I'm happy having the damn thing running again), but may get my tinfoil hat out later in the week and try.

Cheers,
Harv

[62ekute]

Hi Harv, I don't know if it's still in the instructions, but many years ago for the Peel 30 wrapping around a plug lead was how I installed them - then some loom tubing around that. Works okay but doesn't look great. Patrick