Hot grey build, advice/sources needed

[Fud]

Hey guys, I'm in the early stages of building a hot grey for my EK ute, I'm needing a bit of advice in which direction to take and where to source parts, and a few specifications, this is my first motor build, so please don't start cutting me down, so I have a virgin motor and my first move is to bore it out, how much is the recommended size to bore out? And what kind of head work is is recommended? Cheers fellas, maybe we can start from here

[Harv]

G'day Fud,

You are guaranteed someone will tell you that grey motors cannot go fast, and that you are financially better off with a red motor or V6/V8. Whilst technically correct, such opinions have no soul. Hot grey motors do .

Before you start, a few questions:
a) What do you want to use the engine for? If its a daily driver, then you will probably want a (half) decent idle, and some reliability. If it's a weekend-warrior, you can probably sacrifice a little to get a "hotter" motor.
b) What kind of budget are you looking for? For a few hundred dollars, you can add some bolt on goodies that will look the part. For a few thousand, you can get a rebuilt motor that will be reliable. After that, it gets wilder, and more expensive.
Very rough ballpark numbers... not accumulative:
Rering motor: $1,500.
Rebore motor: $3,000
Overhaul head: $800
Overhaul, port and relieve, bigger valves head: $1,200
Crossflow head: $20,000
Dunstan head: $50,000
Overhaul carb: $60
Twin carbs: $500
Triple carbs: $800
Mechanical injection: $1,500
Norman: $8,000
Extractors: $200
Headers: $500
Zaust: $500
Roller rockers: $1,300
Crank girdle: $500
Mistubishi rods: $1,500
Billet crank: $6,000
c) What shape is the engine in? Does it still have good compression/not chewing oil? If its OK, you may get away with a re-ring rather than a rebore/new pistons.
d) How much of the removal/dissassembly/reassembly/reinstallation work can you do yourself? The more work you have to farm out, the more expensive it will be.

Cheers,
Harv

[FJWALLY]

I'll leave the real hard core stuff to Harv as he's a genius on it but as a ball park I had mine re-coed recently by Top-Torque in Nunanwading Melbourne and it cost me 4800$ - for that they did the following
clean and crack test
re-bore to 20 thou over
line bore journals
new pistons / rings and pins
new valves to better suit unleaded
new valve seals etc
new valve springs and tidy up lifter faces
re-grind cam to what they call a MILD cam - better than stock but not lumpy
balance and re-grind crank
balance flywheel
Check and balance harmonic balancer.

In addition to that Ive done the below
twin strombergs on a Speco inlet manifold - 700$ including linkages
Speco rocker cover with H nuts - 300$
Recondition Dizzy and convert to electronic - 650$
Gearbox re-build 650$
Speco headers 700 plus coating 200$ - I have a set of pipe extractors I'm going to sell if interested - but you can buy them on eBay for 180$

So the basic motor is not bad but the extra old school stuff is very expensive - start talking superchargers and cross flow heads and WOW - go buy a new HSV.

[Fud]

Thanks fellas, I was thinking along the lines of, reborn .30 thou, reground cam, bigger valves, crow valve springs, clean up the intake and exhaust a bit for a bit better flow,and twin stromberg a, is that an alright sounding setup for a weekend car? Is there anything else I may have to do?

[Fud]

I am a heavy diesel apprentice so I will probably try to do all bar the valves and bore by myself

[Harv]

Hardened valve seats to suit unleaded.
Replace fibre timing gear with steel timing gear = cheap, DIY, and more reliable.
Consider skimming down the head (shaving) for more compression.
If you are opening up the ports, the manifold locating rings wont fit anymore. Consider roll-pinning the manifolds to locate them.
Fit tube headers (extractors) unless you want period perfect, in which case fit cast headers. Upsize the rest of the 'zaust.
Get a radiator mob to open the tanks and clean the radiator out. Consider fitting one of the new head gaskets that improves coolant flow.
Change to Pertronix ignition (more reliable than points), though if you are handy with spanners then points are little drama.

Cheers,
Harv

[Fud]

Thanks guys for a little insight, there are a heap of tricks going around but, the thing that spins me is no one ever gives specifics on there's tricks...

Fitting a Vauxhall crank to improve strength... Yeah and model of Vauxhall? Or the engine model?

Mitsubishi rods... Year and model? Or engine model?

And places to source rebuild parts?

Cheers fellas, again I am thankful for the information, it is stockpiling up, getting ready to begin the build and giving me some guidance on what direction to go

[Harv]

Agree Fud, there is a lot of info out there in peoples heads. As an early Holden community, there is a pretty good chance that a lot of that knowledge is lost. For my part, I try and document the stuff I learn... anything from heaters to Normans. It takes a lot of time and patience though. The bit that worries me the most is that many of the guys who know the most are also computer-shy. It takes a lot more effort to sit down and talk with them and slowly understand the stuff they have spent decades learning.

There is a lot of myth, legend and outright bullshit that circulates regarding hot Holden engines. Sorting the wheat from the chaff is part of the challenge.

Some stuff that was applicable 20 years ago is no longer so relevant. A good example of this is the Vauxhall crank modification. Vauxhall cranks are now pretty damn rare (I grew up with Vauxhalls and Worseleys, but can't remember the last time I saw one on the road ), need some surgery to fit into the grey block (they are not a bolt-in), and still give you a pretty old crank. For the time and effort involved, you could more easily fit main bearing bridges (have to make yourself but easy to fit), or a crank girdle (off the shelf from Sonic Injection but needs sump mods), or a new billet forged crank (expensive, and needs mods to get it to fit). Another example of this is the legendary Massey Ferguson harmonic balancer... according to legend, the mercury filled balancers were the bees knees for preventing crank damage. Try finding one now... much easier to either buy an off-the-shelf Dayco replacement for everyday use (Rares sell them), or for those chasing performance a Ross Tuffbond balancer (part number 116543 Metal Jacket Balancer...off the shelf too from Omega Manufacturing Group Pty Ltd).

The Mitsubishi rods are a more modern occurance. They are expensive (... like $300 per rod ), and to be honest do not give a huge amount of benefit over the stock rod (many, if not most hot grey builders use the stock rods). They are not a bolt-in mod... the Mitsi rods need to have the sides milled about 0.008" for clearance to the crank journal width. There are two variants of the Mitsi rods (wide and narrow journal), one of which is used on the standard grey crank and the other on the billet cranks. I've got a full write-up on the Mitsi rods, but cannot lay my hands on it (I am having a not-so-minor email storage meltdown). From memory I emailed it to Paul K - I'll check and see if he has the original email.

Cheers,
Harv

[GreyEJ]

Here is what I would do.

Leave the bore standard, it wont make much difference. Get a Fully 6 head off ebay they are $1200ish they flow 150hp from HSD in Melbourne.

Get Clive cams to grind a cam, speak with him about how lumpy you want it.

Balance the bottom end it is around $150 for crank, rods, flywheel ect.

Use a good harmonic balancer if you plan to rev it. I will find the link for you for the Ross balancer if you are keen.

Get an electronic ignition, there is a guy Paul that makes a HEI conversion they are great.

Get triples because they look great.

Get headers also look great, flow worse then extractors but have heaps more wow factor.

New rings and bearings and it will be good for ages unless your really killing it often and driving it 1000's of ks.

Want more info on anything just ask. I have several greys in the build right now.

[GreyEJ]

- start talking superchargers and cross flow heads and WOW - go buy a new HSV.

Normans and Repcos have a soul though.

[Mick Jagger]

i dont have much to ad
good on you for having a go
a good heap of Australia was built using grey motors
im a bit to young and grew up with red sixes
and thats where ill stay
you can build a cheaper newer motor,sure ,or part out a "newey" and get all the running gear for a song...
its like bluetoothing a song from a phone to a compatable device and then hearing crap
or you can go to your record rack grab it play it and feel it,sounds great,and you get to hear all the other songs on it,cause you have too

the grey will be fine
long live the grey engine
i think people get a bit fussy re engines
i just hone mine out with a drill
new rings and bearings
re seat the valves by hand with paste ,both grades
sand up the gasket areas
make sure all clean and good to go
i remember the first red head i ported
with stones on a drill ,l
i snapped a few but got the inlet posts on a 9 port head to a point
must have added 5hp
it was noticable and my first mod from word of mouth
then i tried it on some mates cars ,with those stones on a drill
took a long while
in a backyard ,hillbilly style
just looking and feeling,we had no $$$$$$
it got a 351 4v rocking at the goldcoast drags when the cops would race
fun days

[GreyEJ]

2 people I know have roller rockers:



Here are the HSD heads. They sell then on eBay or direct in store. They have a great shop and really know ( and love ) greys.

[FbSTDwagon]

Great info about building a hot grey motor!

How does a crash box hold out behind engines like these?

[Harv]

How does a crash box hold out behind engines like these?

Depends on how you drive them. If you like burnouts or drag racing, then the poor old crashie suffers... or your start doing diff centres and axles. If you are more gentle on the starts, then they will handle a suprising amount of power. There are plenty of humpy circuit cars out there in Na and Nb who run crashies at 150-200hP. They have a tendency to spit out synchro cones, but a little judicious tack welding on the retaining rings fixes that.

Cheers,
Harv

[FbSTDwagon]

How does a crash box hold out behind engines like these?

Depends on how you drive them. If you like burnouts or drag racing, then the poor old crashie suffers... or your start doing diff centres and axles. If you are more gentle on the starts, then they will handle a suprising amount of power. There are plenty of humpy circuit cars out there in Na and Nb who run crashies at 150-200hP. They have a tendency to spit out synchro cones, but a little judicious tack welding on the retaining rings fixes that.

Cheers,
Harv

Thanks Harv.

Knowing the crash box will be ok if I treat it accordingly I will move ahead with my thoughts of building a hottie motor.

Question mate, will the triple strombergs fit the engine bay on the fb ok without modifying the firewall or anything like that?