Chop Shop EK

[Smooth customs]

no no paul im very sorry mate
I had no intention of directing my comments to you mate I was just speaking in general of my views on people commenting on guys like myself that have put big money or time into cars
I appoligise if that came out like it was directed at you
regards
paul

No worries, I so like how you put in the hard yards in time and money to build such a high quality vehicle and now have it signaged for your business and are driving it.

I have refrained from posting here for quite a while after getting blasted on several sided because of my advice or comments being taken the wrong way or the reference to the level and perceived cost of the work I did.

[CHOPPED]

iv just tried to pm you paul but cant get it to send
for any one that knows me they would agree its not in my nature to argue or make misleading comments
we run a bussines in top end cabinets its very difficult trying to justify the costs to a client
when we are putting in hundreds of hours on 1 job
not to mention the rising costs in materials
on the car side iv had people come up at shows and say comments like nice car mate but I would have painted it a different colour
as said before yes mate but its my car
paul

[Mick]

iv just tried to pm you paul but cant get it to send
for any one that knows me they would agree its not in my nature to argue or make misleading comments
we run a bussines in top end cabinets its very difficult trying to justify the costs to a client
when we are putting in hundreds of hours on 1 job
not to mention the rising costs in materials
on the car side iv had people come up at shows and say comments like nice car mate but I would have painted it a different colour
as said before yes mate but its my car
paul

i was a little confused at why "PAUL" (smooth customs) fired up at "PAUL" (CHOPPED)'s comments but then i read the name at the end of the post and then i figured that that could possably have caused the confusion

i don't think it would matter how much money i had i don't think i'de be throwing money like that at a car even if not just for something better than a plastic trophy there isn't a trophy good enough for that kind of money (unless it had a cheque for the approx build cost attached to it aswell ) i would love an FB/EK that drove like a new commodore with plenty of power on the ground stance etc etc but still not at 100k+ and even if i was spending alot of money on a car i'de still want to be involved as much as possable along the way rather than just handing over bundles of cash and claiming what "you did" at the end when all you really did was have a bit of an idea (usually coppied from someone else anyway) and hand over cash
i love people like paul (chopped) that have aquite showy car but still get in and drive it i remember after one of the all holden day grima getting in his 55/56 chev and driving it the weather hadn't been great and he seriously considered driving it down a dirt road he was talking to me about doing it all that stopped him was he said the hours it takes to clean the underside if they go everywhere in a trailer i don't see the point in a few things these people usually do 1.spend a fortune on an engine 2.rego the car but that's just me a HUGE part of having a car to me is driving it

[CHOPPED]

thanks mick
for the record I did about 95% of the work on my ute and every other car iv ever owned
I don't do electrical and I don't do trim
the ute cost in parts alone was about the same as a new commerdoore ss would be
I don't do shows in general because I allways cringe at the comments made by people
the last 2 shows I put it in
me and my son dropped it off at the start of the show
went motocrssing through the weekend and then picked it up when the show closed
the only reason I ever took it to meguires was to do something for my 40th birthday
met a lot of nice people over there but most of the time through out the week end I was sight seeing around Sydney
so as stated shows aren't really my thing
if you cant drive them to me whats the point of having them
it used to amze people when we would drive it 400ks or so to a bmx event over the weekend with 2 bikes in the back and all the race gear
park it in the middle of a carpark (mostly dirt tracks ) then drive the 400 ks back home
I just like driving them
paul

[bootlegger]

So is cubic dollars the only criterior for building an elite car.
Is it the builder. Can an elite car be built on a budget or is there a check list of unavoidable expensive parts to buy which couldnt be sourced from swap meets or wrecking yard. I think sometimes owners like to spruke about what they spend because it in their mind translates to an ego thing.
I quoted a two doored ek a few months ago.
All the metalwork was done to a high level. It needed finishing and paint.
I quoted 15 to 18 grand. The guy that got the job quoted 35 and got it.
Tops it was two to three weeks work and two grand in materials.
Some people just want to be reamed.

The Street Elite class caters to a slightly lesser quality car over all. But has exceptional detail/engineering or innovation in one or two of the judged areas.
What level of finish was the guy wanting for his Two Doored EK??

Paul the car was always going to be a show car. I knew that when I quoted it. Considering there was no steel work to do just the nicky work and paint I thought what I quoted was making pretty good money. I think the other guy at 35 grand just had more of a reputation. Im basically unknown. Im not concerned that I didnt get the job just baffled at the other guys price.
Ive got three restos on the go at the moment. A Ht monaro that somebody else butchered, a Triumph TR3 roadster and my EH SCC Van. I still havent finished that alloy tail for the 1930 Brooklands. Cant seem to get the old fashioned bucking rivets to stick all the panels together. Ive tried all the aircraft supplies. They only have countersunk and mushroom headed ones. Im chasing full round.

[Smooth customs]

So is cubic dollars the only criterior for building an elite car.
Is it the builder. Can an elite car be built on a budget or is there a check list of unavoidable expensive parts to buy which couldnt be sourced from swap meets or wrecking yard. I think sometimes owners like to spruke about what they spend because it in their mind translates to an ego thing.
I quoted a two doored ek a few months ago.
All the metalwork was done to a high level. It needed finishing and paint.
I quoted 15 to 18 grand. The guy that got the job quoted 35 and got it.
Tops it was two to three weeks work and two grand in materials.
Some people just want to be reamed.

The Street Elite class caters to a slightly lesser quality car over all. But has exceptional detail/engineering or innovation in one or two of the judged areas.
What level of finish was the guy wanting for his Two Doored EK??

Paul the car was always going to be a show car. I knew that when I quoted it. Considering there was no steel work to do just the nicky work and paint I thought what I quoted was making pretty good money. I think the other guy at 35 grand just had more of a reputation. Im basically unknown. Im not concerned that I didnt get the job just baffled at the other guys price.
Ive got three restos on the go at the moment. A Ht monaro that somebody else butchered, a Triumph TR3 roadster and my EH SCC Van. I still havent finished that alloy tail for the 1930 Brooklands. Cant seem to get the old fashioned bucking rivets to stick all the panels together. Ive tried all the aircraft supplies. They only have countersunk and mushroom headed ones. Im chasing full round.

Dave.
You may have to look for those rivets overseas.

I have looked at your estimates and expenditure and there is no way on this earth I could buy materials required to do a show quality job for $2,000 or turn such a job in two to three weeks. Based on your figures I worked it out like this.
$15,000 less $2,000 for materials leaves $13,000 labour.
Two weeks/80hours works out to be $162.50phr
Three weeks.120 hours works out to be $108.33phr

$18,000 less $2,000 for materials leaves $16,000 labour.
Two weeks /80hours works out at $200phr
Three weeks/120hours works out at $133.33phr.
Or is my maths incorrect.

At the $35,000 Quoted price that you described as a price that "Some people just like to get reamed." is more a realistic Show quality job price taking into account everything required to produce such a job. Show Quality Jobs can consume 50 to 100% plus more work than initially seen, usually by the owners or they add to the original description once work is started. On these types of jobs you might make wages and a little on the top if you are lucky.

I have seen your work posted here, and they look great and the guys on the board that you have done them for are more than happy.
But I don't seem to see an Industrial area based premises or any of the other things a regular body and paint shop has, more like a shed carport or yard where you do your work. Or am I seeing that wrong as well.

The reason it cost the "Reamed" prices you have pointed out is in part to the costs of running a registered permitted/licenced business. That can be under regular inspections to make sure every requirement is being adhered to.
That can cost the business owner tens of thousands of dollars in rent, then the State government licencing and local government and EPA costs and approvals.
Plus power phone payroll tax's super holiday pay workers comp, maintenance and upgrading of tools and equipment required to run a licenced business and all the other incidentals.
At no where near the hourly rate I have worked out based on your quoted figures.


I don't doubt that you would have been recommended to do the job.
It may have come down to the owner seeing where you work, and then comparing it to another establishment.

[bootlegger]

All valid points paul. The guys that want two pac jobs get done in a booth. Just because I work outside of an industrial situation doesnt mean I cant produce quality work. Ive chosen to work this way because its how ive always worked. I especially like working outside in the fresh air. Hence all the outside images you see.
Im humble enough to acknowledge that im nowhere near the best there is. But everyday I push myself to improve my skills and am passionate about my craft.
Ive got a really good workshop with all the gear everyone else has and maybe more than most. Last year I bought out a complete sheet metal shop that closed down. There is nothing I cant make in my shop in wood ,steel or glass. My overheads are low because twenty years ago I bought land and built a huge shed/ workshop. Im a registered business and pay all the taxes etc just like everyone else.
Even the guy that works for me cant believe how much work I can get done in a day. Ask peter (cal) and stewart (parisian) how much I do. They couldnt keep up with me either.
I dont think three weeks is unrealistic to get a car in colour after its had the metalwork done. You just have to get stuck into it and focus.
Putting them back together is another story. That really sucks some time.
Your calculations are correct. I usually dont quote but charge by the hour plus materials. This guy wanted a price so I came up with that. I quoted it at the body shops premises so he didnt see my barnyard setting.
Rustydungers looked at the same job and came up with a similar figure to mine. It really was a straight forward job.
According to your calculations im at over a hundred dollars an hour so what is the shop making at 35000 even if you add another two weeks labour and double the material cost plus overheads.
I have never built an elite show quality car for anyone or myself. I have no aspirations too either although it would be nice. I do plan to build a maserati 450s in alloy from scratch.In 30 years of doing this ive tried to give the customer what they wanted and generally succeeded.

[Smooth customs]

All valid points paul. The guys that want two pac jobs get done in a booth. Just because I work outside of an industrial situation doesnt mean I cant produce quality work. Ive chosen to work this way because its how ive always worked. I especially like working outside in the fresh air. Hence all the outside images you see.
Im humble enough to acknowledge that im nowhere near the best there is. But everyday I push myself to improve my skills and am passionate about my craft.
Ive got a really good workshop with all the gear everyone else has and maybe more than most. Last year I bought out a complete sheet metal shop that closed down. There is nothing I cant make in my shop in wood ,steel or glass. My overheads are low because twenty years ago I bought land and built a huge shed/ workshop. Im a registered business and pay all the taxes etc just like everyone else.
Even the guy that works for me cant believe how much work I can get done in a day. Ask peter (cal) and stewart (parisian) how much I do. They couldnt keep up with me either.
I dont think three weeks is unrealistic to get a car in colour after its had the metalwork done. You just have to get stuck into it and focus.
Putting them back together is another story. That really sucks some time..

Dave, after you posted the original reply above at 11:29pm last night I gave it a read and called it quits and left this topic alone.
But my post must have got at you because you posted the second part below and greatly rewrote and added to the one above at 1:57am this morning.

.[/quote] Your calculations are correct. I usually dont quote but charge by the hour plus materials. This guy wanted a price so I came up with that. I quoted it at the body shops premises so he didnt see my barnyard setting.
Rustydungers looked at the same job and came up with a similar figure to mine. It really was a straight forward job.
According to your calculations im at over a hundred dollars an hour so what is the shop making at 35000 even if you add another two weeks labour and double the material cost plus overheads.
I have never built an elite show quality car for anyone or myself. I have no aspirations too either although it would be nice. I do plan to build a maserati 450s in alloy from scratch.In 30 years of doing this ive tried to give the customer what they wanted and generally succeeded.[/quote]




All paintwork performed by a licenced automotive repairer in NSW, no matter what type of paint it is must be done in a booth.
There are other guidelines relating to what you can and can not do concerning outside work as well.
I have not questioned the quality of your work, or your skills in any way. And the photos posted by you and others show that.
Your first and last sentences of your second post seem to contradict each other, you went to quote a show quality job but have no aspirations too either although it would be nice???
Does Rustydungers have shop?
In regards to your question on a 35K paint job, I am sorry I have to explain this part of the process to you and how the cost escalate. But you asked me to justify the costs.
Starting with paint and consumables. On a show quality job its easy to outlay 6K and more in some cases. A show quality job requires attention to detail in areas overlooked on general repaints. And the detailing and painting of smaller pieces that's numbers can become unbelievable. These parts soak up hours days and sometimes weeks, in preparation.
No matter how good the panels look before the first stages of etching, the smallest imperfections and unseen errors must be attended to. And on a show car both the inside and outer must be prepped and painted where required.
Once the painting process starts, booth time costs must be added to the bill. Almost all pieces may see three to four times in the booth from the primer to base colour and the first coats of clear. After these will be rubbed down again before a flow coat is applied. Some pieces may not be of the high quality required and may need additional attention.
The body and panels will receive similar treatments, some inside and out, over and under. With the hanging panels having to be fitted at least a couple of times during this process. And some may be two toned that increases the amount of work needed.
Once all the paintwork is at the level of finish off the gun that the owner of the shop and the owner of the car is happy with, the progression of sanding in preparation for buffing begins. and this will not be just a days work. And then the buffing, and buffing followed by the cleaning in preparation for the final detailing and polishing of the gleaming show quality paint.

I hope I have explained this time consuming and at time stressful process that consumes an amount of money most people are unaware of in attaining a show quality paint job.

[bootlegger]

Yep your right paul it got to me. I think I want to leave it alone now as well.
Im fully aware of rules and regulations. Thanks for dressing me down and proving I know nothing.
Lucky I didnt get that job. The guy would have gotten a shit job and I would have lost money.
Im sure it will be spectacular however long it takes to do in a professional shop.
Im going to my backyard shed and make some money so I can support my family and my hobby.
Well done you win mate.

[Harko]

nail on the head ,
but overall its the greed of the nation soaking up all the cash doing it whilst jumping through the beaurocratic hoo
s .

[Mick]

dave may not have done show quality and may be in for a shock if and when the time does come, but something he is failing to mention he has an offsider that has and if the time ever comes i'm sure dave will put in 110+%
paul i can only speak of the 2 places i've seen you work from and neither of them were grand palaces they were basic factory units, it's not about where the work is done but who is doing it, there's plenty of people that have set themselves up in huge fancy buildings that have no clue (they soon fail usually destroying cars and taking people's money along the way) i don't fully know yor situation but aren't you now working from home? i really don't know why the subject of money and how much a shop is overcharging and people working from home gets under yor skin so badly and why you feel the need to defend these places

but overall its the greed of the nation soaking up all the cash doing it whilst jumping through the beaurocratic hoo
s .

harko you have summed it up perfectly greed and beaurocratic bullshit

as for dave's comments about some people just like to be reamed when it comes to what they pay, surely he and i are not the only ones that have come across these people that seem to get great pleasure out of telling anybody that will listen the rediculous amounts of money they have spent, you know the type "they're new old stock sills i had fitted cost me $1000" i like to answer with they're original sills and came with the car cost me nothing extra and really once they are covered in paint they could be newspaper and bog from front to back and nobody would be any the wiser (other than tapping them or trying to get a magnet to stick)

[Smooth customs]

dave may not have done show quality and may be in for a shock if and when the time does come, but something he is failing to mention he has an offsider that has and if the time ever comes i'm sure dave will put in 110+%
paul i can only speak of the 2 places i've seen you work from and neither of them were grand palaces they were basic factory units, it's not about where the work is done but who is doing it, there's plenty of people that have set themselves up in huge fancy buildings that have no clue (they soon fail usually destroying cars and taking people's money along the way) i don't fully know yor situation but aren't you now working from home? i really don't know why the subject of money and how much a shop is overcharging and people working from home gets under yor skin so badly and why you feel the need to defend these places

but overall its the greed of the nation soaking up all the cash doing it whilst jumping through the beaurocratic hoo
s .

harko you have summed it up perfectly greed and beaurocratic bullshit

as for dave's comments about some people just like to be reamed when it comes to what they pay, surely he and i are not the only ones that have come across these people that seem to get great pleasure out of telling anybody that will listen the rediculous amounts of money they have spent, you know the type "they're new old stock sills i had fitted cost me $1000" i like to answer with they're original sills and came with the car cost me nothing extra and really once they are covered in paint they could be newspaper and bog from front to back and nobody would be any the wiser (other than tapping them or trying to get a magnet to stick)

Mick, in no way have I put Daves work or passion for what he does down . And in my post this has been mentioned. If and when Dave does do a show quality car it will be up there with the best.
The two shops of mine you have visited were not the flash deals a lot of people have today, but like Dave the work that came out of them didn't reflect the place they were built in.
As far as places of work, I like so many others did what is required when setting up a business and complied to the regulations set down to do such a thing. And those of us that did this expected like minded other to do so making a level playing field for all as a starting point. Where it goes from there is up to the person running the show and the amount and type of work generated.
I no longer operate my business due to health reason and physical restrictions, and I do finally have a shed at home after 20 years of not having one. I still make the occasional set of skirts for those that may want them. and hope to be able to build my daughters EK wagon some time in the future. But it is not a place I can visit every day, and am extremely lucky my children and a couple of close friends ( one that you know. )have tried to tidy it up and make space on the floor.
I have sold off all but one of my cars that were what I was going to finally build for myself after 20 odd years but it may still go soon.
My replies were about what was posted by others and I asked questions relating to those posts and what other aspects that were generated in the following posts.
Mick, you know from experience what some posts here can develop into with name calling and accusations flying back and forward. And then not posting for quite a while. I know exactly what that is like and have refrained for so long due to those reasons.
No name calling or accusations have been made, just questions and answers.
But I know others will read all sorts of things into it and I expect some backlash and support for Dave due to his involvement in so many forum cars.
I will resign back to being a reader as there are people here that don't want or need to have their beliefs questioned or changed.

[bootlegger]

Paul just for the record I dont hold an animosity towards you. I know you do great work.
Everyone has an opinion as do you and I.
It would be a shame if you left the forum again.

[Mick Jagger]

Show cars. roll
I spent a year and a half of my youth flat out working on a car,and was real proud of it
took it to a show ,think it was the big one at Cleveland asrf
anyway ,it was no show car just took it for people to enjoy etc...
Id let whoever wanted sit in it and take a photo
but the comments ,this is not standard ,wrong fuel line ,they never had that.....
well I smoked the tyres and left
all done on a day permit rego too
I don't like car shows anymore,they to fancy

[WesternWagon]

Wow

Now back on the topic of the car, if anyone sees the car at Mtorex I love to see the finished product

Cheers

Gazza