Rear axle bearings post

[Blacky]

Sorry guys I managed to bugger this thread up when moving it so I cut and pasted it ......


I am a volunteer to help put and FB back on the road.
The FB in question has oil fed rear axle bearings with outer seals that have given up the ghost and leak.
Do I have to replace like for like, if available, or use fully sealed bearings and hope the seals in the new bearings stop the oil from the diff getting through. There is no provision in the axle for any additional seal arrangement to stop the oil flooding the sealed bearing.
Its all disassembled just not sure what's the go or current thinking on the matter.
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Errol62
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FB Rear wheel bearings and seals.

Post by Errol62 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:13 pm
Mick
The oil fed bearings are NLA and you’ll get fully sealed ones as a replacement. No o ring in the bearing outer face or if there is pull it out and ditch it. You won’t get the new bearing on with the o ring in place. The inner cup and spring seal often supplied won’t do anything in the FB EK set up because the machined running surface on the axle was shortened up for these models. You could probably fit FC axles and use the cups but easier to just install the outer seals which from memory fit between brake backing plate and anchor plate. See if you can get hold of a gmh service manual or I can photograph the relevant pages. Just might take me a few days to get to it.

This funky setup is unique to the FB and EK models and it can be a bit tricky lining up the seal with all the bits and pieces.
Cheers
Clay


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bigmick
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Re: FB Rear wheel bearings and seals.

Post by bigmick » Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:32 am
Thank Clay for the info.
So you are saying just put on the fully sealed bearings minus the 2 little O rings on the OD?
From your experience is the oil stopped by the oil seal that is pressed into the bearing on the diff side or is that setup suspect with the oil flooded arrangement. I have not seen a seal available to go outside of the bearing and behind the backing plate are they available?
I take it that this seal is to prevent any possible leakage on the brake shoes if it did get past the bearing.
On the matter of the cup seal with the spring I was supplied that seal but not only is there nowhere for the seal to run on the axle, the outer diameter of the seal is the same as the bearing and the bearing recess in the axle is only deep enough for the bearing it would need to be about 3mm deeper to take the seal and the bearing.
I have one MBS RW507ER fully sealed bearing from Rares another one on backorder with 2 little O rings I take it that these bearings are OK as from my experience Jap bearing are usually a decent quality.

Regards,
Mick
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ardiesse
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Re: FB Rear wheel bearings and seals.

Post by ardiesse » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:56 am
Mick,

(Clay won't mind if I offer a correction . . .)

Take a look at the thread "Leroy the EK Ute". Joe had much the same problem with rear wheel bearings and seals.

A short history of Holden rear axles, bearings and oil seals -
The FX has bearings with a narrow outer race, and oil seals pressed into the rear axle housing. The seals bear on a machined section of the shaft, just inboard of the bearing.
Half way through FJ, the rear axle was revised to take a bigger rear wheel bearing, still with a narrow outer race.
The FE and FC have one-piece axle shafts with the wheel studs, but still use the same rear wheel bearing as later FJs. And they still have the oil seal in the rear axle housing.
For the FB, the GMH engineers outsmarted themselves. They changed the rear wheel bearing again to the type with the wide outer race, an O-ring on the outside of the outer race, and an oil seal on the outer side of the bearing. And they deleted the oil seal pressed into the rear axle housing. The FB axle shafts don't have the machined section for the old seal to bear on, either. The shop manual refers to an "oil deflector" (a rubber seal) whose job it is to go inside the hole in the brake anchor plate and stop oil that gets past the bearing from getting into the rear brakes. This setup lasted until part-way through the EK, when the FX-FC rear axle oil seals were re-instated, and the axle shafts revised back to the old lengthened seal bearing surface. The rear wheel bearings for late EKs are hand-packed with grease at assembly.
EJ-HG: same wheel bearings as FB-EK. Originally hand-packed with grease at assembly. Rear axle oil seal revised yet again to the cup-type supplied with the bearings.

If you want to fit the FX-FC and late EK rear axle oil seals into your FB (assuming the rear axle housing has the machined bore to take them), they're a 2577, and they're thinner in section than the originals and way more flimsy. Very easy to distort when installing. Use a drift of the right diameter.
But if you go this way, you'll need to find a pair of late EK axle shafts. FE-FC shafts will only be usable if the inner race thickness of FJ-FC bearings is the same as that of FB-HG bearings.

Rob
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Re: FB Rear wheel bearings and seals.

Post by bigmick » Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:02 am
Hi Rob,
I have read quite a lot on the matter and what you have had to say is in line with much of the info I have come across so far although thanks for the level of detail you provided it sheds more accurate information on the matter.
The problem I have is that its not my vehicle and am fairly sure the owner wants to retain the existing parts as original,
The original bearings and the sealed replacement I have a 7/8 outer race width and 22.5mm inner race width and the bearing recess is 7/8 deep so no provision for the cup type seal as its the same OD as the bearing and is 3mm wide but not room for it. Also the machined area on the axle does not provide a running surface for it.
The replacement sealed bearing also came with a seal to install in the housing but as there is no machine area in the axle housing I can not use that either.
Judging by your level of detail on the matter you know all this anyway so am I left with no alternative but to install the new sealed bearing and hope for the best. Is this outer seal arrangement still available that goes in the brake mount.?

Cheers,
Mick
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ehsv6
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Re: FB Rear wheel bearings and seals.

Post by ehsv6 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:39 pm
Are these what you are looking for.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-REAR-WH ... ect=mobile
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Errol62
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Re: FB Rear wheel bearings and seals.

Post by Errol62 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:35 pm
Yes well was hoping you would pipe up Rob. Truthfully I’m not sure on the outer oil deflectors. Anecdotally the sealed bearings work okay without the o rings or the deflectors fitted. Could be a different story if you’re over filling the housing and throwing the car around corners.

Earlybitz does tend to know his market so quite probably that kit does the job. It’s not even that dear by his prices anyway but try your local old school car parts shop as they will be cheaper no doubt.


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ardiesse
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Re: FB Rear wheel bearings and seals.

Post by ardiesse » Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:36 pm
Mick,

Go with the double-sealed rear wheel bearings, but you will need the O-rings on the outside of the outer race (grease them before installing the axle shaft in the housing). The oil seals on the bearings will keep the diff oil out of the rear brakes, fingers crossed.

The "oil deflectors" sit inside the bore of the rear brake anchor plate. From memory they have about the same cross-section as a really big rubber band (say 10 mm wide x 2 mm thick x 70 mm dia). You'll probably have to improvise on that one, using the originals as a pattern. Maybe truck inner-tube cut to size and butt-jointed with rubber cement? Butyl rubber may not agree with gear oil though.

Getting all the parts to line up when you're installing the axle shafts is going to be a pain in the rear. The best way is to disconnect the brake pipe from the wheel cylinders so you can move the brake backing plate freely in and out. The shop manual shows guide pins being used to line the parts up. This is recommended. You'll need four, four-inch lengths of 3/8" rod with bullet-noses at one end. Knock the rear brake retaining bolts out of the rear axle housing flange. Install the axle shaft by hand. Put the "oil deflector" in place inside the anchor plate. Grab the brake backing plate and move it outwards as far as it will go. Ease the C-shaped bearing retainers into place between the rear axle flange and the brake backing plate. It's at this point that you'll need to install the guide pins through the holes in the axle shaft to pick up the retainer plates, the brake anchor plate, the brake backing plate, the C-shaped bearing retainers and the rear axle flange. Once the parts are located, then you can remove the guide pins one by one and replace them with the brake retaining bolts.

It's no comfort to know that servicing the rear axle bearings on anything EJ onwards is child's play in comparison.

Rob
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Craig Allardyce
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Re: FB Rear wheel bearings and seals.

Post by Craig Allardyce » Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:24 am
Interesting stuff,

My FB has the inner oil seals and the machined surface on the axles.
I know all the previous owners and they have never said the whole housing was ever changed. It did show heaps of wear around the U bolt area so I reckon it was the original.
I had no issues fitting the axles with the orings on. Even though the bearing was sealed I still fitted the inner seal to the axle housing for added protection.

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Re: FB Rear wheel bearings and seals.

Post by bigmick » Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:15 am
Thanks guys for your advice, expertise and knowledge.
What I have gathered from this discussion is that the original FB arrangement is less than ideal and that the best fix is to replace the housing and axles with a later model.
Given that the owner has a desire to keep the vehicle as original as possible I intend to respect that wish and proceed much in line with the way you detailed Rob.
I have already removed all brake components front and back as they were all RS. The drums and shoes have been refurbished new cylinders acquired and all other components cleaned up ready for re-installation. As you mentioned Rob is easier, if that the right word, to carry out the installation of the axles and bearings if all other components can be moved around.
The axles are ready I have pressed off the old retainers and bearings installed one new set just waiting on Rares to get the other bearing in then all systems go.
As for the seals located in the brake hanger with were not there on disassembly but I have seen them in photos on the forum and they appear to rectangular in section so I'll seen what I can come up with.
Once again guys thanks for you help and your wealth of knowledge on the subject and I am sure that before I finish this I'm sure to come across other problems that I may seek help or advice with.

Cheers,
Mick

[FbSTDwagon]

Great info in this thread!
I’ll be referring to it very soon myself!

[Blackdog]

Hi All,

Anyone undertaken rear bearing replacement lately?
Just wondering any recommended part number/supplier/store that will suit ek housing.
Have been caught out in the past with the generic ‘early holden’ supplied bearings that were not sealed.

Guidance appreciate

Blackdog

[Errol62]

I did them on my ute a year ago before changing to torana axle. I just used the generic ones that were supplied and discarded the seals from memory. O rings intact in the outer races. Sealed bearings. No leaks.

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[Errol62]

Pulling and pushing the axles out of a HR axle I bought years ago. Was going to scrap as I deemed it too hard to get them out. Got one with help from Raff levering with 6' bar between the axle ends, and me on slide hammer, after 20 minutes map torch. Not hot enough. I need oxy.

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[In the Shed]

Hey Clay,
You’re welcome to borrow my oxy set up, just need to check gas levels. You could make a fire and cook the diff then quench it with cold water that might be enough to unfreeze it. Just don’t over cook it

Unfortunately I can’t make Saturdays run.

Stephen

[Errol62]

Thanks Stephen. I’ll get it by hook or by crook. Sorry you can’t make Saturday.


FB ute fixer upper, EK van on rotisserie

[Errol62]

Finally, cause for celebration!


Father in laws old fencing bar hammered it out on dad’s bench.
Heat and lubricant may have helped.


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[Harv]

The passengers side rear bearing got noisy on the FB 10 years ago, so I replaced it. The drivers axle refused to move, despite an agricultural puller driven by a 10lb sledgehammer.

When I get old and feeble and someone buys that diff, I apologise for the two different bearings. It ain’t noisy, and it ain’t coming out either.

Cheers,
Harv